Brian & Gabe LIVE #26 Special Edition: Intel and Wanova talk about desktop virt and management

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On today's special edition of Brian & Gabe LIVE, we welcomed representatives from Intel and Wanova into our San Francisco studio to participate in a special discussion on desktop virtualization and desktop management from two companies that are leaders in that space. Part of the Virtual Desktop Library on SearchVirtualDesktop.

On today's special edition of Brian & Gabe LIVE, we welcomed representatives from Intel and Wanova into our San Francisco studio to participate in a special discussion on desktop virtualization and desktop management from two companies that are leaders in that space. 



Part of the Virtual Desktop Library on




Brian: Good morning from San Francisco at the Tech Target Office on Bagel Wednesday.  This is Brian Madden, you’re listening to a special edition of Brian and Gabe Live.  Joining me today via Skype from his home office in Omaha, where I assume that every day is Bagel Day, Gabe Knuth.

Gabe: If every day were Bagel Day, I would be – that would not be good.  Actually the only time I eat bagels is when I’m in the San Francisco office and apparently they bring in bagels all the time.

Brian: Is that like a special rule you have, like when you travel you’re allowed to have cigarettes and bagels?  You know as much as you want.

Gabe: Yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah, exactly.

Brian: So joining me in our studio in San Francisco, we’ve got two people.  First is Barry Phillips, who is the CMO of Wanova.  So, Barry thank you so much for taking the time to come in today.

Barry: Yeah, thanks for having me.

Brian: And also Jesus Garcia, a multiple time guest of the show, Alliance Marketing Manager for Intel.  Thank you for making the drive down.

Jesus: I’m glad to be here.

Brian: Actually Jesus, you drove down from sort of the Sacramento area and Barry, you are in the sort of greater San Jose area, and I think Barry, you might have had the longer commute.

Barry: Yeah, that’s crazy.  Shorter distance, a longer commute.  An hour and 40 minutes to get up here.

Brian: Yeah, good thing we made you come in here instead of letting you use Skype for this thing.

Barry: Right.

Brian: So today, it’s a special edition of Brian and Gabe Live and we call it a special edition and we’ve done this a few times before because it is a sponsor show, so this is a sponsor show sponsored by Wanova and Intel.  And the idea is we have conversations, we wanna have conversations about your products and the market and the industry and what you’re seeing, and we wanna dedicate the whole show to that.  So, from your standpoints, see I’m pointing here for those of you who are just listening, from your standpoints, Intel and Wanova, this sure beats some dull boring whitepaper.  Let’s actually have a real conversation about what the hell you guys do and what your views on the industry are.

Gabe: That’s great.  Well that’s what makes it special for us too is because we haven’t – you know our amount of prep time for this show was about 15 minutes with the talking about what we’re gonna talk about on the show but we haven’t – there’s no – there’s no overarching message, that kind of a thing.  Brian and I are learning about this at the same time and so these are our, you know our real reactions and this is a real conversation that we’re having too.  So it’s not just a – it’s not a typical sponsored thing, that’s why we call it a special edition.  So these are fun.

Brian: So, Wanova, let’s kind of start – back up a little bit; we have written about Wanova a few times before on, and I know you’ve been at different events and it’s been a few years that Wanova’s sort of been around.  But Barry Phillips, I wonder if you can just quickly give us, what’s the elevator pitch of – if no one’s – if someone has not heard of Wanova, what is Wanova?

Barry: Yeah.  So everything that people know about the manageability of images and single image management and layering around VDI, we do that but we do it for physical PCs.  So, you know we give all the benefits that IT needs in terms of, you know being able to get great desktop TCO, being able to do things like Windows 7 migrations, hardware migrations, being able to repair images without touching the machines.  But users get to just use any regular PC that’s out there without the need for a client Hypervisor or anything else.  So it’s really the best of both worlds, great user experience, but also, you know all the benefits that IT needs.

Brian: And the products, I mean it’s – you’ve been selling products for a couple years now.  It’s – this is, you know I think we wrote initially when Wanova was in the sort of startup phases, but you’re in I think V3 now or something like that?

Barry: Yeah.  Yeah.  We launched our 3.0 in November and we’ve actually done a couple dot releases since then just based on lots of customer feedback.

Brian: And so, let’s kind of dig into this because I feel like every – so first of all, those who have seen and heard Gabe and I speak in the past, you know that A, we’re all about the desktop virtualization.  But we, more importantly are quick to say that hey, desktop virtualization is more than VDI.  And we have the book about the copy.

Gabe: Right.  Immediately after we say we love desktop virtualization we also say that traditional desktops fit in there as well.

Brian: Yeah.

Gabe: They almost go hand in hand.

Brian: And it’s funny because, you know us covering the desktop virtualization industry, we sort of talk about all these new ways of delivering desktops, but what Wanova does, it’s sort of more desktop management.  It’s not really desktop virtualization per se.  I mean, I don’t know how you –

Barry: Yeah.  Yeah, there are some customers who will go down a desktop virtualization path and it doesn’t work for them for all the reasons you identified in the book.  And they’ll come back to us because they have physical machines.  But the other thing is we have lots of customers and especially very, very large ones, 17,000, 20,000, 50,000 seat customers who don’t think of as virtualization whatsoever.  They think of us as a better way to do management or Windows 7 migration or something like that.

Brian: And so as you said in sort of your introduction, this is Wanova, the Mirage is I think is the product name, right?

Barry: Yeah.

Brian: So Mirage is – it allows you to have some of the desktop virtualization benefits you get like with like the layering and that kind of stuff.  But there’s no hypervisors, or there doesn’t have to be a hypervisor, this is not a hypervisor plug-in, this is – it takes a regular copy of Windows and enables it to be, you know slice and dice, here’s your base layer, here’s your user layer, your applications layer, that kind of thing.

Barry: Exactly.  And the nice thing is that we’ll start from a generic PC and migrate everything up to the data center first so you got a great copy of that for DR purposes, and then you get into the management side of that.

Brian: So can you talk a little bit about sort of the technology?  I know this is – we wanna talk about sort of how this fits in the future of the industry, but from a pure technology standpoint, I mean what is Wanova actually doing?

Barry: Well, you mentioned it before; it’s a different form of management.  We’re not really a desktop virtualization tool.  We’re a desktop management tool.  And we do the same sort of image management in terms of, you know Windows and core applications that a VDI solution would do, but do that for a physical machine.

Brian: And so I’ve got – I’ve got my laptop, which is where the Wanova, you know controlled laptop or whatever, and then it’s got – there’s some drivers on there I guess and it’s – I mean what’s actually happening on the thing?

Barry: Yeah, so the great thing is you have an existing laptop or desktop, no change to it, you know and you install our client on it.  Our client’s gonna layer that and basically create six logical layers and then start transferring that up to the data center.  We integrate de-dupe into the transfer, so we really only send a small piece of the information up.  And then once that’s up there you’re able to actually replace it by the corporate image, which then goes down.  And then steady state you’re always backing up the machine and then you’re always sending down the IT golden image.

Brian: So you get the benefits, I mean so if you’ve got a Wanova managed laptop, it’s – you get sort of the continuous backup.  You’ve got the ability that, you know if the admin team makes changes, they can push changes out to its – the users can still install their own applications even though the admins might be doing the hot fixes and that kind of stuff.

Barry: Exactly.  Yeah.  So we create six different layers on this laptop inside the – into the cloud.  The bottom three are all IT controlled and the top three are all user space information.  So everything about that machine, if you were to restore an image from one machine to another and have them up on desktop monitors, you couldn’t tell the difference between the two.

Brian: And so –

Gabe: And you can do that to different hardware too.  Right?

Barry: Yeah, completely different hardware.  We’ve got lots of customers who are taking 2,400 desktop machines and moving them over 2,400 laptops, bringing all the user space information and swapping out the OS right in the middle of that.

Gabe: And so one of the interesting things to me because I talked to you guys last year because Kevin Goodman and I gave a presentation at Briforum in Chicago about user-installed apps.  And I learned that when switching hardware platforms, the Mirage can actually inject the appropriate drivers at boot time.  Am I recalling that information correctly?  So that it knows or so that it can boot the image on different pieces of hardware?

Barry: Yeah, absolutely.  We can take an image and float it across even different types of hardware platforms.  So we’ll automatically give you throughout what’s called the driver layer, the right drivers for that particular hardware platform.  And even if it’s a virtual machine we can do the same thing.

Brian: So basically I’ve got a setup like a package, like I’ve got Dell Model 1, Dell Model 2, HP Model 1, Desktop Model 1, and if it’s a VM it could be a Xen VM, a ESX VM.  And so that’s – those are all sort of separate packages, so I’m taking my base layer, pop in the driver pack and sort of booting that up I guess, right?

Barry: Right.  And then you’re gonna throw all the user space information on top of that.  And plus any sort of corporate application layer that you wanna use too.

Gabe: So – but it’s still one base Windows imagine, right?  It’s just separate driver packets from the driver library?

Barry: Yeah.  That’s the whole reason why you can do things like single imagine management, Windows 7 migration and even repair the images without actually touching the machines is because you do have that one single base image, which is your core LS and your core apps.

Brian: And the idea I guess, is that if the base imagine – I mean you can repair it because the base image, if the user breaks something the base imagine can still sort of boot up I guess.  And then connect – sort of phone home back to the Wanova server and, you know refresh the higher-level image or something like that.

Barry: Yeah, there’s a couple ways you do it.  If the machine will boot, like I had a virus on my machine and I just did a bunch of presentation updates and was pretty scared it was gonna be all gone.  And basically just right-clicked on my image on our console and said restore our base image back one day and 17 minutes later my machine rebooted, virus was gone, all of my presentations and applications were there.

Brian: So, you were not in our office if it happened in 17 minutes.

Barry: Yeah.  Luckily I was at home.

Brian: But even if your base image is broken.  I mean, like so, Jesus, you know if you’re doing this on – I know Intel has stuff where – is this – I’m gonna use the words wrong.  What is it where – in the chip set itself, right?  Like if the machine is hosed –?

Jesus: Yeah, so we’re talking about AMT here?

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: Active Management Technology.  So with vPro has a capability where you can do a remote boot – a boot to a remote ISO, right?  So, if let’s say the PC is down, the OS isn’t working for some reason, the IT admin can even remotely power it on, tell it to boot from a remote ISO on the network somewhere and that ISO you can imbed in Mirage clients.

Brian: Oh, so that can be whatever you want, that ISO, right?  So –

Jesus: Yeah.  So it could be like a small Win PE imagine for example, right?

Gabe: Right.

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: You can embed the Mirage clients in that ISO so when the machine boots then the admin assigns, you know the users last known good state to that Mirage client.  And then the user will be back up and running because it’ll sync all that data back to the laptop and the user will get back exactly as it was before he crashed the system.

Brian: Does the user – in that case the user wouldn’t even have – necessarily have to restore everything from the backup, but if it’s only that like –

Jesus: Only the differences.

Brian: Well, yeah.  Right.  Because if only – if the user had like broken something in a major way in the system layer that would prevent it from booting, then you can connect in via the vPro like the AMT –

Jesus: AMT, right.

Brian: – tell it to boot up to like the – some kind of image that’s got the Mirage agent in it that’s sort of gonna check and see and it says oh, I see that you broke this here.  And it doesn’t touch the other layers.

Jesus: Actually yeah, yeah.  The cool thing is that IT doesn’t even have to do diagnosis.  It just says here, apply this – this layer to it, right?  The pristine golden layer and you’re back up and running.  So you don’t have to determine which fault it is.

Gabe: Think of how much time this saves.  Like rather because, you know we’re all the same way with just stuff starts to act crazy, you just reboot first.  Like why try to figure out what the hell’s going on.  Just pull the plug and start again, see what happens and, you know if it’s still there then you can troubleshoot.  Especially if it’s bad, screw it and –


Brian: Because – because, I mean IT pros do that anyway.  It’s just that usually when they do that they screw the user and the user loses everything.  So this is – because most of the time the users, or the IT pros are like I don’t know what’s happening, let’s just reimage it.  And now you can do that essentially without losing all the images.

Gabe: Smart reimaging.

Brian: I wanna go to some of the questions; there’s a lot of stuff in the chat room.  And, let’s see, I was first looking at –

Gabe: It looks like Tom is a Wanova employee.

Barry: Yeah, Tom Nichol.

Gabe: Okay.

Brian: So, okay, so the – so first of all addressing – we talked about the benefits of VDI, what about active fail over via vMotion like functionality?  So this is from VDI Superman.  Hello.  And maybe I guess I should –

Barry: So it’s gonna be like, huh?

Brian: Well, this is something that Gabe and I look at a lot is that, you know we don’t wanna say all the benefits of VDI, we’ll say many of the benefits of VDI.  So –

Gabe: I’m actually giving a session at Briforum in London about that.  About how you can get to some VDI features without actually doing VDI and so – and obviously Wanova’s gonna be a big part of that discussion because of these kinds of things.  And so, yeah, I guess, you know obviously we can’t – nobody’s gonna be able to vMotion something with this because that’s sort of a hypervisor, slash, shared storage related feature that obviously isn’t there with this.  

But like we just talked about with the backups and stuff; that can actually happen fairly quickly right?  Not – not instant by all means, but – or by any means, but still you can switch users from one machine to another like what did we just say?  17 minutes?

Barry: Yeah.  Yeah.  And that’s – and the great thing about that is because really what happened is my stored image, my golden image which is in the cloud and was compared against what I have on my machine and only the differences are sent down.  But from a – I guess from DR perspective, I can always take my image if I – if that machine died, you know I can put the Mirage client on a brand new one.  I’m gonna look at the two differences and only send down the delta between the two, which is only the personal space stuff.  

We know which applications and files a user uses most often.  Those come down first.  So even across the country you’re up and running in about 30 minutes on your own machine.

Gabe: So even that’s kind of like streaming, where it’s streaming down the most important bits it needs to get up and running right away.  Like we think with app streaming, where the application bits that are needed to execute right away are streamed down first so that the app can load, and then the less important things are streamed down in the background.  And this is just doing that with the entire user experience.

Barry: Yeah.  And that’s a great analogy.  And then if for some reason there was a file that you need that you hadn’t used in a while, you just double-click on it.  It goes to the top of the screen or the top of the priority.

Brian: So – and the thing about the VDI, you know this is a lot of what we talked about in our book where there is a lot of advantages of VDI.  And one of them is super high up time, you know no – like if a client – that you’ve got the vMotion, the failover, all that kind of stuff.  But then of course there’s downsides to VDI, which is your stuff is executing centrally so it’s hard for very intense graphical applications into a slower network connections.  And, you know this is just part of what goes into the equation of figuring out where you run your comprehensive Windows, whether you do it on laptops or centrally.  

And I guess my point is that – so a lot of people, I feel like a lot of people are doing VDI because they want to make their environment easier to manage.  And I’ve written in the past, by the way, I do not believe for an instant that VDI is about saving management.  Saving management is – the way you save management is by doing centralized, you know sharing images or doing App-Virtualization, user virtualization.  And VDI’s just sort of a delivery mechanism of that.  And certainly Wanova can be a delivery mechanism and a way to help you do some of these, you know separation of these layers.  

But where I’m going with this is that I look at this as, you know if you – there’s a lot of benefits of VDI that you don’t know need VDI for like the management.  And that’s where – so when I’m talking about like this sort of thing, having the benefits of VDI without VDI – I guess I shouldn’t say it’s all the benefits, but it’s definitely like if you want the centralized management.  You don’t need VDI to get centralized management because I imagine this is way way cheaper because you’re not buying any servers.  I guess you need like a small server just to host your images and stuff like that, but that’s probably – you can support, I’m sure thousands of users off of one server.

Barry: Yeah, we normally get 1,500 to 2,000 users at the same server that you’ll get 30 to 50 with the VDI.

Brian: And what are you talking about by the way, costing for Wanova?  I mean how’s that – that’s another question from the chat room.  Pricing and licensing, how does that work?

Barry: It’s similar from a licensing fee that you would have from a VDI perspective in terms of, you know we actually license it per user.  And then we have like an entire solution, which includes image management, migration, DR repair.  But they’ll also split it up into two different packages.  One from an image management side and then one from a DR and repair side.

Brian: And what are we looking at, I mean we were talking about – I know licensing is always individual, like every company depends on how good their negotiator is and how good the vendor’s sales rep is.  But, I mean you know the range of licensing we’re looking at is what?  A couple hundred bucks per user?

Barry: Yeah.  A couple hundred bucks, something like that.  Yeah.  But the great thing is that, you know when you compare it to a VDI from a data center side, you know you start having quite a few less servers up there, the storage doesn’t have to be very fast storage so you can use regular slow storage.  And then your – and then the ongoing cost of power and cooling are quite a bit less too.  Not to mention any sort of, you know one of your favorite subjects, Microsoft licensing.  Remember that operates on the laptop or desktop itself –

Brian: Yeah.

Barry: So no issues in terms of SA or BDA.

Brian: Do you need SA?  I guess –

Barry: Nope.  Not at all.

Brian: Right.  Now I guess it would –

Gabe: Wow.  There’s a bonus.

Brian: Now if a user – in that case, so if a user connects from a different machine they’d need to have two Window’s licenses –

Barry: Right.

Brian: – one for each machine.  But you license per user you said, not per device that you might want to someday use and through everything like that.  So let’s see, the USB.  So someone’s asking about –

Gabe: Crazy USB devices.

Brian: Yeah, crazy USB devices.  But I guess that all works because you’re not –

Barry: Yeah.  It’s just – it’s a regular laptop or desktop.  You could take our client off at any time and it’s just – you could take our client off, put it back on, take it off, put it back on.  It’s just a regular machine.  You could take the machine with the client on it away from our server at any time.  It’s just a regular machine.

Brian: So we say take the client off, put it on because your client – it’s like an app, it’s like a –

Barry: This little two MEG MSI file that you put on there then it will actually start synchronizing after that.

Brian: Oh, and like if I was for whatever reason to delete that, like uninstall that clients, the machine’s still there –

Barry: Yep.

Brian – it just doesn’t have anything looking at the layers and backing up and, you know that kind of stuff.  Or if I have PX – if I had AMT vPro stuff –

Gabe: Antique.

Brian: Yeah.  The user takes it off and then I can just connect in via the hardware level and I assume you can’t block that.

Jesus: Actually you know what’s really cool about AMT has this feature called agent presence.  So that an agent actually can check into AMT periodically and if for some reason the user uninstalls the agent or disables it, AMT can send an alert back to the management console that says hey, this user deactivated their agent, get it back on there.

Brian: Right.

Jesus: And so, you know it can be another point of integration.

Barry: So that’s a good point, Brian.  Because most people when they first hear about Wanova they think we’re some sort of VDI solution and it takes a while for them to understand that it’s just a regular physical machine.  It’s no change to user experience, no change to the hardware, no hardware requirements.  It’s whatever you have right now.

Brian: And it doesn’t – yeah, so it doesn’t – I mean there’s no hypervisor.  I mean it’s just – it’s more like – it’s more like an uber agent for like the ultimate desktop management agent.  Think of it like installing the Altiris agent or the SMS, you know SECM agents.  I mean something like that.

Barry: Yeah, but it’s different because all of your – all your imagines, well, your single image that you manage is in the data center, right?  So you manage one copy of Windows, one copy of SAP, one copy of Outlook in the data center for all the users that are there.  So that’s where the management happens.  The client is really just taking information and installing it and actually backing up everything.

Brian: So – and incidentally, I don’t think anyone in the chat room or Gabe knows, can I pause the scrolling on this thing?  Because I try to go back and read questions and then as soon as someone enters something new in the chat room –

Gabe: I think – I think if you scroll up it stops scrolling.  You know if you scroll up just a little bit.

Brian: Yeah.

Gabe: At least – I’m pretty sure I’ve been bitten by that before.  But yeah, there’s so much conversation going on.  This is the most active I think I’ve ever seen the chat room, which is good.

Brian: So do people – so do people because it – so it doesn’t require a hypervisor, but of course it can work in a VM.  So I don’t know if people are using – are people using this in combination with VDI also?  Because I’d imagine that you could sort of – you know we – somebody –

Gabe: If somebody asks a question you’d be hypervisor agnostic, right?  Across the board

Barry: Yeah, so we can operate on a hypervisor in the data center, or we can operate it on a hypervisor on the client.  And it can be a Type 1 or a Type 2; we don’t care.  We actually have only one customer who’s using it and that’s the U.S. Senate and they’re using Macs and they’re using Fusion.

Brian: And then –

Gabe: So a guy with a clue in here asks – sorry, Brian, you want to –?

Brian: No.  Go ahead, Gabe.

Gabe: Okay.  So – excuse me – a guy with a clue in the chat room is – he says I have an iPad and – and right – so here’s a big thing that VDI doesn’t have, or that Mirage doesn’t have that VDI does, is that it gives you the remote access to the desktops on devices that can’t run windows.  But in theory you could probably take your Mirage provided desktop, Mirage managed desktop that you use on your PC at the office and deploy that into a VM that you can access via VDI then if you wanted to as well.  Right?  I mean it’s – I don’t know if there’s a sexy, kind of a nice way of actually doing that, but you can take that image with you if you need to.

Barry; Yeah.  And there’s two ways of supporting an iPad.  I mean one is exactly what you said.  I grab my image and I then assign it to a VM and then it signs over quite quickly, then I can access it off of an iPad, do whatever else I wanna do with it.  Whatever changes I make then go flowing right back to my actual physical machine.

Gabe: Is there an automated way to do that?  Or is that a manual process?

Barry: At this point it’s just basically IT assigning the image from one to the other.  It’s a pretty quick process to be able to do that from an IT perspective.  But the nice thing about that is, is you’re not really chained to VDI to get iPad access.  Because that’s kind of the way – you know when you think of a lot of VDI that’s sold right now it’s because you get executives who want iPad access.  But the other way to do it is – so that gives you your apps and your files.  If you just want your files, if you’re on a Mac or an iPad, you can use our, what’s called a file portal.  You log in through AD and you can get access to all your files of your centralized image.

Brian: And that’s some – that just exposes your – and so this is not the files on a share, this is like actually because you’re backing up the image –

Barry: Right.

Brian: – you’re sort of reaching into that imagine – they’re copying the image in the data center and getting the files that way?

Barry: Yeah.  So normally every hour, and you can set it to every half-hour or two hours, the Mirage client is gonna sync up all your changes.  It’s gonna sync up, you know anything that you do.  I change my – whether or not my taskbar hides or I have big icons or small icons or what’s in my Quick Start Menu.  All that’s – and then of course your files and your apps and your drivers are all backed up.  And so then that’s the way you can go in and access.

Brian: Okay, so I wanna take this moment to remind you that you’re listening to Brian and Gabe Live Special Edition, which is sponsored by Wanova and Intel.  And the ad copy I was given to read, which almost seems maybe it’s irrelevant right now, is if you’re looking for the advantages of desktop virtualization without the cost, complexity and user complaints commonly associated with VDI, Wanova and Intel have the solution.  Intelligent desktop virtualization, Wanova Mirage provides centralized single-image management disaster recovery of the entire PC, in place Windows 7 migration, hardware migration and more.  More information is available at

Gabe: Wow.  That’s pretty good.

Brian: And I – you know I say it’s almost irrelevant because it’s what we’re talking about right now, so.  Although it brings up some more things.  You had mentioned Win 7 and some other stuff that we wanna hit on.  But one of the things, and I’m – if I scroll back to some of the earlier comments in the chat room, people are asking about BYOD.  I guess the DYO, BYOC in this case, you know.  So I don’t know – I mean is this a scenario where you see – if users want to bring in their own laptops, does Wanova fit into that?

Barry: Yeah.  I mean, you know the one thing you see with the BYO model is you can’t really go out there and say listen, you get to choose from these four models, right?  You’re gonna be able to have to support everything.  And I think you hit it right in the book.  It’s – even if you have a corporate-owned laptop right now and you give a user admin rights, they essentially kind of have a BYO there already.  

So the one thing Wanova does a really good job of is, on these top three user space layers are completely separated really from the bottom three corporate IT control layers.  And by the way, all six layers have 21 separate snapshots.  Think of time machine-like functionality for each one of those layers.  But that allows the users to do everything they wanna do from the personal side of things, but allow IT to have the control it needs from the corporate side of things.  

So then, you know if you make the assumption that a user can bring any machine on that they want to, that kind of eliminates the whole Type 1 hypervisor piece because you’re gonna have certain machines that are supported and certain ones that aren’t.  So you know we can obviously manage an image on a Type 1 or a Type 2, and I think really the Type 1 hypervisor that Microsoft delivers with Win 8 is really gonna be the piece where you see BYO taking off.  Because you’ve got two different Type 1 machines with no hardware compatibility issues.  

Gabe: I guess, you mentioned the hardware compatibility with Type 1 hypervisors and obviously Wanova and Intel are here together.  But does Mirage need vPro to work?

Barry: No there’s things that Mirage can do better with vPro, like we talked about –

Gabe: Sure.

Barry: – the ability to go in and use Win PE and be able to boot that machine remotely.  And there’s, you know being able as Jesus said, identify if there’s something missing and be able to add that piece on.  So it doesn’t necessarily need it, you know it certainly works better on it.

Gabe: Well and that’s just, you know apart from the BYO thing, is if somebody does go and acquire their own machine or bring in their one that they’ve had at home for a while that doesn’t have vPro on it or something like that.  Or if it’s not even an Intel processor, then, you know it still works with those pieces or with those pieces of hardware as well.  So, that’s good.

Brian: And so the whole BYO thing too – I guess we – so first of all if the Wanova client is only a couple MEGs, I mean a user could have their own machine with their own copy of Windows and all they have to do is – I mean that could be any machine.  It could be – I mean if we put the Wanova client on there, then that could of immediately start syncing and backing up the user’s environment from bringing the user’s stuff down.  I mean there’s nothing really – like the IT doesn’t have to own the whole image – well, I guess they have to sort of – help me out here.  Because like I’m just sort of like exploring this in my mind.  Like, let’s say that I buy whatever machine at Best Buy –

Barry: Okay.

Brian: – and bring it into the company.  And the company’s using Wanova to sort of deliver and manage and slice up their desktop, is the company gonna wanna put a new image on that machine?  Or can I just take whatever copy Windows that has, and install the Wanova clients and let it start doing its thing?

Barry: Well, I guess the first thing is, you know that user probably has a machine that they’re going from to the BYO machine.

Brian: Yeah.

Barry: So the good question is how do you actually first migrate all that user’s information over and that’s something of course we do from a P to V perspective, right?  Get all the information up there.  So you can certainly just backup all the user information.  Remember how everything is done in layers and not actually manage that machine yourself if you wanted to.  So you’ve got –

Brian: Oh, yeah.

Barry: – so you’ve got the functionality.  When you get into the layers and the fact that they’re stored separately and snapshotted separately, there’s lots of layer algebra that you can do to actually do a lot of different things.

Brian: It’s actually kind of cool.  Like I could imagine where you – you know sort of a BYO solution really would be, like well, you got this machine that runs Windows, we don’t really wanna deal with it.  But we’ll just – if you install the Wanova client on it we’ll go ahead and manage the user layer so you can get your data back.  And that’s kind of an interesting use case.

Barry: Yeah, but – and as somebody who had that virus, the ability for IT to go back in and fix my machine is absolute – I tell you, I would – you know the great thing about the product or actually – is the fact that as a user you don’t even know it’s on there.  The only reason you know it’s on there is if something happens.

Brian: How did you get a virus by the way?  What the hell?  What year is this?

Barry: So – yeah, yeah.  You know what’s funny it was the same virus that I’ve seen probably two years ago and we had Kaspersky running on the machine and everything, and it was just a minor speed bump for the virus.  So I have no idea.

Brian: The other – and so, Jesus, I’m surprised you didn’t speak up here because I feel like every time I talk about BYO with this guy in the room, he’s like hey man, if you have a new sexy Ultrabook you don’t need BYO.

Jesus: Well actually, and that’s true, I mean what user actually wants to buy their own laptop so they can use it at work?

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: Users would rather have one laptop that they take around with them everywhere, right?  That IT buys for them.  And if IT were to give you, let’s say, you know an, you know an Ultrabook that’s ultra thin, you know it’s light, it works well, has long battery life rather than a big old plastic two inch laptop –

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: – I think users would appreciate that, right?

Brian: That’s actually a good point because and we have this the same with the phones today.  So like I have an iPhone, it’s my only phone and I use a Google voice plus the built-in number to like kind of have my work and personal life separation.  My phone is bought by Tech Target, the bill – I don’t even see the bill; I assume someone pays it, it’s like a corporate phone.  But – because I don’t wanna buy my own cell phone.  I don’t wanna deal with Verizon and all that crap.  But it’s nice because IT gives me the device that I want.  It’s still – it’s their device, but it’s the device I want.  

So like I’m sitting here in front of a MacBook Air, but really like I don’t – the OS in this thing – I was talking to some people a while ago.  I really, really don’t care.  Because honestly I use Chrome as a browser, which is cross-platform.  I use Office, which is cross-platform and I use iTunes frankly because all my stuff is in the iCloud and I use iTunes for windows.  And so whether or not this actual thing is a Mac or Windows, I think frankly I couldn’t care less.  The reason I have a MacBook Air that I bought with my own money incidentally, is because the machine that they gave me –

Gabe: It’s the fun factor.

Brian: I don’t know what the hell it was.  It was plastic –

Gabe: It was two inches thick.  Yeah.

Brian: It was two-inch thick plastic, it was exactly what you said.  And then like – yet, even those two-inch thick plastic it was still more flexible somehow than my having to take MacBook Air.

Gabe: Pontiac Aztec of Laptops.

Jesus: You know it’s gonna get even more interesting.  So up until today there’ve been very distinct form factors, so you’ve had, you know your small smart phone and you had a laptop.

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: And then the tablet came and so you had a smart phone, tablet and laptop.  But now, you know with new devices coming in later this year and a little bit more in the future, you’re gonna see even more – even more devices that are completely brand agnostic.  You’re not gonna know whether you have a tablet or a laptop because you’re gonna get an Ultrabook that you can take the lid off –

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: – and it’ll become a tablet.

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: You can swivel the lid, you can, you know if you need a keyboard it can be a clamshell form factor.  If you don’t want the keyboard you can detach the lid because the processor will be within the lid, and you have a tablet.

Brian: That’s a good point.  I mean because frankly my – you know this MacBook is not that much bigger than the iPad.  And I see these people that walk around with iPads plus, you know –

Jesus: Plus a keyboard?

Brian: – a keyboard and like all that shit, and I’m like – you know?  The  Mac – yeah, you can buy these Mac Airs for $999, I mean this is – but I guess – and you know it’s funny you mentioned it, but I didn’t think of that.  But I think that I can say pretty – maybe we can work out some kind of deal here.  But like I really do feel like if I had – like if the company – if I walked in that day one and the company gave me some like super thin, super small, made out of metal, like sexy little laptop, if it ran Windows I wouldn’t care.  And –

Jesus: If they gave you a hybrid Ultrabook, right?  That can be a tablet or a clamshell and was touch enabled.  What more do you need?

Brian: Yeah.  That’s true.  And then at that point – and then you don’t care.

Gabe: Multi-touch enabled.  Multi-touch.

Brian: Multi-touch, yeah.

Jesus: Multi-touch, yeah – oh, I’m sorry.

Brian: But, you know – but at that point you don’t care.  So whether – so but from an IT standpoint, it can run Windows natively.  You’re not – there’s no hypervisor to break through USB, you know compatibility, it’s got native GPU access, all that kind of stuff.  You pop Wanova in there to manage it so you’re not – so you don’t have the performance hit of the hypervisor.  It’s a regular laptop, you still get the backup and all that sort of thing.  I like that.  Ultrabooks, these – they’re – like you can buy these now, right?  

Jesus: Yeah.  Yeah, you can buy these now and more will be coming in later 2012.  In fact you’re gonna be able to get Ultrabooks with vPro the second half of this year also.  So not only are users gonna love it because it’s a cool form factor, easy to use, and it’s gonna be touch enabled, but also IT’s gonna love them because they are super manageable.

Brian: Does vPro – so you mentioned the vPro, like you can do like wake up, like – 

Jesus: Remote power on?  Right.

Brian: Can you do that over Wi-Fi, or like how does that work?

Jesus: You can do that over Wi-Fi as well.

Brian: Really?

Jesus: Yep.

Brian: Does it have to be on the same Wi-Fi network or can I somehow –?

Jesus: So if you’re –

Brian: Can I wake something up at home?

Jesus: So if you’re at home IT’s not going to be able to turn it on for you.  But it does have a capability that the user can connect out of band back to the corporate network from home soil.  For example, they do encounter a problem.  They can go into the BIOS creen and using AMT, you know connect wireless.

Brian: Oh, so those are BIOS  So they can –?  Is it like a red –?

Jesus: It’s like BIOS thing.

Brian: Yeah.  Yeah.  Yeah.  But it’s like – is it user-friendly enough that it’s like if your machine is F’d up, press F7 while booting and that aborts out to the BIOS screen?

Jesus: Actually, well the use case would be the user calls IT and says look, I can’t boot my laptop, what do I do?  And then the IT guy would say, well, you know hit F8 as you reboot.  

Brian: Oh, yeah.

Jesus: Press this to start the remote connection.

Brian: Yeah.  Yeah.  Say, this is a little off topic, but on this like remote, so you can wake up computers via Wi-Fi if it’s in the office.  Is there temperature sensors that will also safely shut down?  Like I baked – I used to work for Compaq ten years ago and I closed it and Windows hung somehow and it didn’t actually suspend.  And I used a neoprene case in that days, which they also used for like wetsuits for insulation purposes.  And I literally fried the laptop because it like – it was on inside the neoprene sleeve and it overheated and never turned on again.  So I don’t know if nowadays –

Jesus: I don’t know if the new platforms are gonna have that sort of temperature sensor.  It’d be interesting, but – 

Brian: I imagine they have –

Jesus: vPro, but –

Brian: But my point is, hopefully, like I don’t want it that it’s in my neoprene case under my desk and you remotely connect to it and –

Jesus: No, that’s doesn’t work.  Good point.  No, so there are a few requirements.  One, it has to be connected to power.

Brian: Oh, okay.

Jesus: And two, it has to have access to either, you know the Wi-Fi network or to the – or to the land.

Brian: The power makes sense because I don't want it to be in my bag and I’ve got like four minutes of battery life left and I’m thank goodness, and meanwhile you boot it up to install the new antivirus software.

Jesus: Yeah.  Yeah, they thought of that.

Brian: Okay.  That’s cool.  Yeah, but now I mean I’m starting to see – and this kind of goes, you know this – what I like about this, like we spend a lot of time talking about desktop strategy and you know I, like a broken record now, you know my story on like don’t make a desktop virtualization strategy, make a desktop strategy –

Jesus: Right.

Brian: – and then make, you know figure out your delivery mechanism or your form factor separate from the actual desktop management.  So – but I mean here you can see because I – I want to go back to this issue of thinking about Wanova combined with VDI.  I don’t know if anyone’s doing that now, where, you know so you can look at VDI as your actually delivery form factor of windows.  So you’ve got some desktops, you got some Ultrabooks, you got some two-inch plastic laptops.  You’ve got all these different models.  And VDI could be another one of that.  

But I don’t know if companies are actually saying okay, Wanova is the way that we manage all of our Windows images and then whether they’re delivered via VDI or via traditional, you know local installs or Type 1 hypervisors.  I mean are you seeing people combine this with VDI?

Barry: Yeah, I don’t think they really – they haven’t really grasped the fact that you can get all those, you know all the benefits of centralization because that’s really what it is.  You know and in the book you talked about, you know VDI as a form of desktop virtualization.  I really think it’s all a form of centralization.  It’s where your images are and where they’re managed.  And then that gives you all those benefits like we’ve talked about.

Brian: But central – sorry to jump in, but centralization of the management, not centralization of the execution of windows.

Barry: Centralization of the images where you manage the images.  And of course then the execution happens certain places.  And, you know I’m the same way as you are.  There’s a desktop strategy.  You’re gonna have some user where it makes sense to have them connect over a pretty high-speed connection via thin client and that’s VDI.  You may have some where you have some pretty high security requirements that disc wouldn’t do, and that’s probably a client hypervisor.  Then you’ve got a bunch that are there who just want a regular PC.  That’s where somebody like Wanova would come in.

Brian: Let’s talk about some of these things a little more in depth, like the client hypervisors.  So, you know you touched on earlier, the Windows 8, we now know is the final name, will have a client hypervisor,.  I don’t wanna call it built-in, but like there’s a option for Hyper V for –

Jesus: In the Pro editions, right?

Brian: Okay.  That’s a Pro – and I said –

Jesus: That’s in the Pro edition.

Brian: I imagine Enterprise.  There’s an Enterprise edition also, did you just come out with –?


Jesus: Well, that’s just Pro plus SA.

Brian: Oh, so there’s – it’s the same bits, it’s just like –

Jesus: Yeah, it’s just there’s Windows 8, Windows Pro and then Win RT for ARM.  So SA will give you the Windows 8 Enterprise.

Brian: Okay.  Okay.  So Windows 8 Pro and then by extension Enterprise of course has the option for the hypervisor, but that’s – I guess, so from the Wanova standpoint, excuse me, from the Wanova standpoint, whether they have a hypervisor, I mean you kind of don’t care.

Barry: We don’t really care.  Yeah.  And you could also take their existing XP or 7 image and then migrate it over to the hypervisor if you wanted to.

Brian: Wait, let’s talk about that because – because – so Wanova now supports XP, Vista, I imagine, I don’t know, 7, 8, you know.  But you mentioned a couple times the migration, so is that – I mean a lot of – first of all I’m surprised at how many people are still in the throws or have not all gone to Windows 7.  Like when I go out and do these –

Barry: Fifty percent of Enterprise is still on XP.

Brian: Yeah, and this is like in today’s world.

Barry: Yeah.

Gabe: Oh, it’s – yeah, I would say it’s 100 percent of Enterprises are still 50 percent on XP.

Barry: Yeah.  Yeah, it’s a crazy number.

Brian: It is crazy.

Gabe: And very big ones too.

Brian: Yeah, and they’ve got – you know and they’ve got a couple years left.  I mean it’s okay, but I mean I’m guessing that – so if you – I mean so migration, does – I mean does Wanova have – is there intelligence about –?  You know here’s XP and here’s 7, like here’s how stuff translates, or is it mainly looking at, you know you can install the WIN of a client on your old sort of like old, sort of like pre-desktop.  I imagine you wouldn’t even have to necessarily fully manage.  

Maybe if you’re on XP, you’re not using Wanova at all, you just pop that, you know 2 MB, whatever client on there, start kind of collecting all the data and collecting everything and creating those layers.  And then you can give the users a new machine with Windows 7, with – or I guess even just re-image their old machine with Windows 7 with just the base, and then let Wanova pull everything back down.  But does Wanova do like sort of any translation from XP to 7?  Or it’s just pulling the data off and putting it back down?

Barry: Yeah, so we actually centralize those old XP images and from the actual machine itself that, let’s say it’s an in place migration of the existing hardware.  Even though we don’t move the user data off of it or the user profiles off.  We actually switch the OS underneath the actual machine itself.  So we do centralize that from a backup purpose.  So if your migration has gone wrong we can actually revert you back to XP within about 30 minutes and have you keep going.

Brian: Wait, I never thought –

Jesus: That happens transparent to the user too, right?  The user doesn’t know that the OS is being switched onto there until they get a message.  The message says okay, reboot, now you’re gonna go into –

Brian: I don’t know if that’s a good thing, man.

Barry: Yeah, there’s a – well, you know in my last company I gave my machine to IT 9:00 a.m. on a Thursday, I got it back at 9:00 a.m. on a Friday.  With us as a user, it doesn’t matter if you’re a remote user, if you’re in a branch office or if you’re in the regular campus office.  It’ll pop up and say listen, we’re gonna give you a new OS.  That’s it.  And then the OS goes down behind the scenes and the user keeps working on XP, it’s about a 30 minute process of two reboots and they’re off and running with no 7.

Brian: So what I just realized what you said is the user data and all those personal layers, that never goes anywhere.  It’s more like your lower level layers of the OS and the driver layers I imagine.  It’s sort of side loaded, it’s like the new one is downloaded in the background, then when they reboot it boots up off that new one.  But the user layer, that never – that never changed.  So you don’t even have – it’s not even like backing up the whole laptop and restoring it.  Now if you’ve got the Wanova client, it’s been backed up all along anyway.  So if like total chaos ensues and the thing is, you know is bricked –

Jesus: So also remember that what he sends back down are the deltas.  All right?  So it doesn’t make sense to send back the user data if it’s already there.

Brian: Right.  Right.  Right.  Right.

Jesus: And so he sends to the deltas between the Windows XP image and the Windows 7 OS.

Barry: And that’s where we get major advantages with branch offices especially.  Because you don’t have to put any sort of branch infrastructure there to do PXE booting and to do backup.  So you don’t gotta put people on site whatsoever.  Everything happens centrally and then we’ve got some great advantages in terms of things like branch reflector, which allows one single image to go down for 100, 150 users in a branch.

Brian: I wanna talk about that, but first I’m gonna take a pause to remind you that you’re listening to Brian and Gabe Live Special Edition, sponsored by Wanova and Intel.  Joining Gabe and I today we’ve got Barry Phillips, the CMO of Wanova and Jesus Garcia, one of I’m sure thousands of alliance marketing managers for Intel.  And –

Gabe: But our favorite one.

Jesus: I’m the only one that covers desktop virtualization and business clients, so –

Brian: Yeah.  And you’re also kind of close, like geographically speaking.  

Jesus: Geographic, yeah.

Brian: So that makes it easy.  And so this, as I said this show today’s sponsored by you guys and thank you for doing that and allowing us to have this conversation.  But Barry Phillips, I wanna get back to what you were just saying about this branch reflector and you mentioned, you know Wanova being used as a brand solution.  

So as you’re – as you’re saying that I’m reminded of like Citrix Provisioning Server is – was – I don’t know, like a lot of people use Citrix Provisioning Server for branch offices where you have one server in the office that hosts a master image or master images for all your machines.  And I know that they had a lot of success in the early days even at Ardence before Citrix bought them, at like retail stores and stuff like that.  So like all the cash registers booted off this one machine and if a cash register crashed then they could just reboot it, then it’s back up and running and everything.  

But Citrix seems to be – seems to be going in a different direction with Citrix Provisioning Server than what the world might want them to.  And so I was almost a little bit sad that like, damn, if Provisioning Server goes away or becomes part of Xen desktop or becomes part of the whole like synchronizer requiring Xen client craziness, then we’re sort of –

Gabe: Like no more desktops.  Yeah.

Brian More Xen desktops, yeah.  But we’re sort of screwed as a community.  But it sounds like though – but this – I really don’t wanna think of it, but this is a good – this is a good use case for that.  I mean and to have Wanova in a branch office, you don’t even need that server down there anymore really.

Barry: Yeah, and whether it’s a branch office or a retail place or possibly a university lab, so you can do in place Window 7 migrations, but from a pure image management perspective, to take these all down to their golden image in about ten minutes.  It doesn’t matter where you are, is something that yeah, we’re getting lots of traction from retail shops in general.

Brian: What is this whole thing like, so in the comments they talked about PXE booting plus application virtualization streaming and I forget which commenter posted that, but it’s been posted a few times so I hear ya.  But this is kind of – that is, so – I’m really like just kind of thinking out loud here, so like PXE boot with OS streaming is kind of what I described with Citrix Provisioning Server.

Barry: Right.

Brian: But, you know so Citrix Provisioning Server, there’s still – there’s Wyse Streaming Manager, which I think still exists as a product.  We’ll see what Dell does with them.  Double-Take, remember there’s that company called M-Boot that Double-Take bought and became Double-Take Flex, but Double-Take like fired all them and shut down that group, so that’s gone as a product.  And you cannot buy Citrix Provisioning Server as a standalone product anymore either.  So PXE plus, you know streaming images, I don’t know if that’s actually like a thing you can do anymore.  

But I almost – you know but the – if you go like the Wanova route because everything’s happening locally, it’s almost like Wanova’s happening – what do I wanna say?  Like out of band a little bit.  Like Wanova’s putting the files down, like all the booting and using the hard drive and all that kind of stuff was local.  It’s just that if you need to update an image or something you can push those files down in the background and then reboot it.  Or I assume, can I do something like I can probably lock certain layers I guess, like if it’s a lab and I wanna just reboot the machine every 45 minutes and it would go back to steady state.  I’m sure there’s easy ways to do that also.

Barry: Yeah.  You can put a script right in front of it and every morning, 8:00 in a lab, you basically take the images down.  And the great thing about it, it’s gonna compare what’s on that machine now, whatever the student put on it and then what’s in the central pristine copy and only send down the delta, and then it goes back to that pristine copy.

Brian: Oh, that’s cool.  And there’s probably not a lot to send down.  It’s more like the leading stuff that’s already there.

Barry: Exactly.

Brian: And if the student messed with any files that are important, then it’s just gonna pop those back down and there you go.

Barry: Yeah, so in the lab or retail you don’t really find any backup.  It’s normally just making sure that that machine itself just always has the pristine image.

Brian: That’s interesting because it’s – that’s the exact scenario that Provisioning Server was – I mean especially when it was Ardence before Citrix bought them.  It was labs and retail.  Like branch office retail locations.

Barry: Yeah, and the difference may be in a lab –

Brian: Say again, Gabe.

Gabe: Because they wrenched that technology away from us.

Barry: The difference may be in a lab environment is that if that network goes down that machine still operates.  Right?  It’s just a regular PC.

Brian: Yeah.  Yeah.  And so again, I like the idea of managing.  This is like sort of one of these core central themes of the book.  I really like this idea of managing that Windows instance and you really don’t care.  Like you really don’t care whether it’s virtual or physical or remote or whatever.  If you’re managing that Windows instance, let Windows run wherever Windows has to run.  And I want – yeah, I like – the wheels are turning in here.  Because I wanted to look at this.  So – and I know we talked on this before, but some users combining this with VDI, that’s not something that you’re seeing yet?  Like –

Barry; Yeah, you’ll – I mean one of our shortest sales cycles are customers who’ve gone down the VDI route and they’ve been partially successful with some users and some use cases.  Or they haven’t been successful.  And they’ll come back to us for those use cases that they haven’t been.  So they are – they’re kind of operating independently, but the great thing is VDI really drives this mindset of centralization, right?  It’s all the images are in one place, I get all the TCO benefits of desktop management because of that and so then we’ll use that to parlay into the physical machines that are out there.  So I would say they’re together in some cases, but operating independently.

Brian: But I’d still like –

Gabe: I would –

Brian: Go on, Gabe.

Gabe: I would say the – you know in my mind I’m just trying to formulate how this – how this could work even better, right?  And I’m thinking that if Mirage somehow tied into the broker, into the desktop broker for these VDI solutions and so, you know normally the user uses a desktop or a laptop or whatever and it’s running natively on the device.  But if they tried to connect to a desktop, you know through a VDI client, that the broker will talk to Mirage and immediately – and do that switch that you had said before that an admin would have to make.  If it could do that switch automatically and then provision that Mirage image to a VDI server on the fly, I think that would just be amazing.

Barry: Well, we’re actually doing something I guess a little bit different than that.  So we’re introducing something called 2 to 1 sync in the next release and it’ll come in stages.  But that’ll allow you just to have your machine that you have normally, actually of course store up to the Mirage central image, but also synchronize with another machine.  So you could actually have your VDI session synchronize with your physical machine if you wanted to.

Brian: Oh, that’s sick.

Gabe: And that answers the question right above where you’re editing right now in our document, Brian, that says let’s say I have a desktop and a laptop and I use my desktop at the office and I want to grab my laptop and hop on a plane, will all my stuff be synced to it.  And two to one sync sounds like yeah, it’ll be sitting there waiting for it.

Barry: Yeah.

Brian: That is sick, dude, look so –

Gabe: This is why I love these special edition ones and why we don’t talk about them ahead of time because we get these really cool revelations.

Brian: I wanna – I want this now.  Because look –

Gabe: Does it work on Macs?

Brian – okay, so here’s my life right now.  I have a desktop at home, I have a desktop at work and I have a laptop.  So the three like PC devices.  Now mine are all Macs, but that as we discussed earlier like they’re Macs just because, like it doesn’t really make a bit of difference.  But if – so all my email is, you know like in the exchange server.  We still use exchange; don’t get me started.  All my emails in exchange server, all my music is in iTunes cloud, all my files are in drop box.  So my, like data is synced and on demand and that goes around wherever I need it.  But it’s the applications that aren’t there.  

So if I make a change – and you know some of the apps are getting good.  Like Chrome now has preferences syncs so my Chrome has three and bookmarks are synced everywhere.  But, you know I mean I don’t know how many times I have to right-click and save as, you know like my settings in Word.  If I install an application – if I find a new app that I like I have to install it to all three places.  So if I could use –

Gabe: So you want three to one sync.  Even their awesome two to one sync isn’t good enough for you.

Brian: Can I hierarchy two to one?  I mean why not?  But the thing is, I mean that’s –

Gabe: Can we nest them together?

Brian: But, you know and I love the idea that you can sync them.  You don’t have to have an image running to sync to it, do you?  Like here’s where I’m going with this.  Could I have all my images synced?  Like the two to one, I’ve got my laptop and just a stack of disc images on a VM server, like on a VDI host.  Or do those have to be – can I sync those out of band I guess is my question?  I can, right?  Because the back end – yeah, that makes sense because – he’s looking at me like what the hell are you talking about.  Here’s where I’m going with this.  Two to one sync is like two running computers I guess.

Barry: Two running computers and then also your central image that we manage.

Brian: Okay, right.  You’re – okay, so it’s like the central image plus two running computers?

Barry: Yes.

Brian: Because – okay, so maybe what I wanna do, we don’t even need two to one sync for it because I really love the idea that I have my laptop, I do everything in my laptop all day long.  But if I’m just randomly like out somewhere and I need to check – I need to check something it’d be cool if I could just go into a VDI broker and boot into the most recent replica of my laptop that is central.

Barry: Right.

Brian: but I don’t want – if I have a thousand users in my company, I don’t want a thousand VMs running 24/7 like just in case that one user checks.  I want a way that I can hit the VDI broker and then it can say oh, here’s Brian’s central image, just boot that up for him real quick and then he can make the changes there.  And then by the way, even if the laptop was off, the next time I turn the laptop on it’s gonna sync down those deltas that I made the changes while the laptop was offline.  

Barry: Right.

Brian: Can I do that today?

Barry Not – well today it’ll still require the IT admin to actually manually be able to pop up that VDI broker.  So there’s gonna be some work that has to happen in that case.  And right now our focus is really to make sure the sync happens correctly.

Brian: Okay, you –

Barry: But yeah, that’s probably a future sort of thing we could do.

Brian: Yeah.  And I guess I’m getting – right, I’m probably getting more into edge case things.  But this is a perfect example because so many people talk about how – there are benefits of EDI.  I mean here are benefits of being able to access – to walk up to any computer or terminal or kiosk on the planet and in a 100 keystrokes or less have your full Enterprise desktop.

Barry: Right.

Brian So that’s a cool benefit, but as I said if you have to have VDI desktops running 24/7, or even if they’re not running 24/7, but if you have to have them sort of staged and ready to go, that’s tough.  And so people don’t usually do that, people just make it so you’ve got either a terminal server or a generic shared VDI image that can be provisioned on demand.  So they can’t quite give me everything, but I can connect remotely and have my desktop office, and my roaming profile and my data put back in there.  But it’s not really my desktop.  So if you could do that, where I could have them stacked, ready to go kind of off line, but fully synced, even if it’s a sync every 30 minutes.  Yeah, that’d be badass.  You should do that.

Barry: Yeah, we are.  We’re doing it.  We’re doing it.  Of course it’s always a development effort to get all these things out there.

Brian: But this is the key though is – see because I wanna go back to – I can’t stress this enough.  Is that for me I want to use Wanova as my Windows instance creation/management/backup.  And I wanna have the exact same Wanova client running in my VDI, VMs, running on my client VMs, running on my bare metal, whether ultra thin, plastic, desktop, whatever.  So I don’t wanna get into like Wanova managed physical versus VDI.  I want Wanova managed Windows.  

For those of you on the radio I’m doing a – I’m doing a – I’m holding my hands up here, saying I want Wanova managed Windows up top.  And then below that I’ve got VDI, client hypervisor, fat laptop, skinny laptop, desktop and it doesn’t matter how the user accesses Windows, it’s got Wanova on there.

Jesus: Yeah.  That’s the benefit of managing the layers centrally.

Brian: Yeah.

Jesus: I think the layers is the big differentiator here because if you didn’t have layers, then central management would just be traditional desktop management like.

Brian: Right.  And if you didn’t layers then that image would be like specific.  

Jesus: Exactly.

Brian: That’s actually the problem with the VMware has a lot of cases is that – because VMware says, well, you know we can take this – we can make your image of VM and then run it anywhere.  A VM can run anywhere which is true, but it can run anywhere like footnote that your hypervisor’s running.  So yeah, you can run it on – but if you’re running on a Mac it’s only via Fusion – wait, Fusion?  Yeah, Fusion.  Or if you’re running it on Windows it’s via workstation or, you know off – whatever.  But so –


Jesus: Yeah, so with this, with Wanova, you get all the benefits of desk virtualization without a hypervisor anywhere.

Brian: Yeah.  But I just can’t – I can’t reiterate enough that to me focusing just on traditional desktop management is only half of it.  If you can take that and combine that – if you can combine that with your VDI and like this is the one way you manage Windows instances everywhere.  Because a lot of these vendors – and that, by the way, this is the success that people are having with App-Virtualization.  

Like look at the people who app and App-V who are doing it right.  They’re not using App-V just for VDI.  They’re using App-V.  Like if they decide that we’re just – we’re delivering Sales Logics with App-V, God damn it, Sales Logics is on App-V, whether it’s traditional or hypervisor or VDI or whatever.  And the user environment management, you know like AppSense, RES, Medio, you know these companies that are doing this kind of stuff, Sence, Tricerat – who else is out there?  

The same thing for them.  Like they’re not advocating for this just in VDI or just in terminal server, it’s like this is your user environment and every God damn instance of Windows in your – where a user logs in has this thing.

Jesus: Actually, you know it’s great that you bring that up because you’re falling into my trap of intelligent result.

Brian: No, you’re falling into my trap of like taking my stuff, which is cool and screwing it up with your marketing.  

Jesus: Actually, no, so what’s central is, you know the management of the – the central management of the layers, right?  And you bring that up in your book and you have VDI delusion, that, you know the future of the desktop is all about separating the apps, the user data and the settings, right?  And delivering that as appropriate to any device that the user wants to use.  I think that’s gonna be the key.  You know that’s what Wanova can do, that’s what you achieve with app virtualization and the user virtualization products out there.  Right?

Brian: And – and if you – so getting back to like what people are talking about in the comments right now about like V motion and stuff, if you’re doing this with – for everything.  If super high like crazy uptime, crazy expensive desktops is a requirement for you, then that’s VDI and you can build it with shared hardware and shared storage and vMotion enabled and everything.  But you can still use Wanova to actually manage the physical assembly and creation of that image of vMotioning everywhere.  And oh by the way, if the user needs to go somewhere else then they can do that and they can have their desktop, you know come down to them.  

But unlike VMware’s view local mode, where like your primary is central and then you’re just taken off line occasionally, with Wanova there is no primary.  Like it’s just – it doesn’t matter where you are, if it’s running it’s backing up continuously, it’s not – it’s hardware and therefore hypervisor agnostic.  And so you can have the total flexibility without saying well, this one’s really your primary experience and here’s a degraded secondary experience.  

Jesus: Yeah, the common denominator there is the Windows OS.  So as long as you have something running the Windows OS, whether it’s a VM or a physical laptop, Wanova can run on it and manage it.

Brian: Yeah, the guy who’s writing the VMware – so Wanova’s like hot VM checkouts – see, I wouldn’t say checkout though.

Gabe: No?

Brian: Because checkouts implies checking back in.

Gabe: Right.

Brian: And this is not – like you can checkout forever and then you can check it, it’s just check.

Gabe: Right.  Yeah.

Barry: This is not VDI, it’s not off line VDI.  You talked about your central – your central primary copy is always the one in the data center.  And then you operate on a local copy, whether that’s on a physical machine, whether it’s on a hypervisor, or whether it’s – the hypervisor’s in the data center, whether it’s on a Type 1 or a Type 2, but it’s always that primary copy is in the cloud, right?

Brian: But let’s be clear that the primary copy – it’s not a VMDK file, it’s like the Wanova data files.  It’s a bundle of data files that then can be streamed, delivered, copied and/or booted from anywhere.  So if it’s – so saying the primary copy is in the data center, that doesn’t mean there’s a VM in the data center.  That means like all the chunk of stuff that we say is you is in the data center and then you can boot that from wherever you need to or stream it down to wherever you need to.

Barry: And kind of – we use a single instance store.  So we’re only gonna store one copy of anything across all users, so –

Brian: Like a file level thing?  So like one kernel dot exe – is that even real?  I don’t know – kernel exe, but –

Barry: And that’s how we do the WAN optimization so well is if you have 10,000 users and one of them synchronizes a Power Point presentation, the other ones get it, we’re not gonna synchronize that we’re just gonna use the – point to that one in the data center.

Brian: You also do the WAN optimization because your company was founded by a bunch of ex – who’s the people that sold that wide area, that WAAS to Cisco?

Barry: Yeah, WAAS.  Yeah.  Yeah.

Brian: That’s the people that started Wanova, right?

Barry: Yeah.  Yeah.  Actona was the company. 

Brian: Yeah.  Yeah.

Barry: Yeah.  And it was bought in 2004 by –

Brian: By Cisco.

Barry: – Cisco, yeah.  So it’s Cisco WAAS now.  So –

Brian: And those guys then quit probably after their earn out and then started Wanova?  Right?

Barry: Well, what’s interesting is they were – they were – Issy Ben-Shaul, he was our CTO, was pulled into an IT conversation at Cisco and it happened to be VMware Pitch and View.  And he goes that’s great for some use cases, but it’s not gonna work from an off line perspective and from all the different knowledge workers here at Cisco.  So he went off and two years later, you know didn’t think he’d find something like Wanova out there.

Brian: Can you talk about some of the questions – we’re coming up on the end of our hour, but you know this isn’t actual radio so we can keep talking.  Like encrypted file systems, how does that work?

Barry: Yeah.  Yeah.  So the one thing, you know from both the storage side as well as the client side, we’re – and especially with the sizes of companies that we deal with.  I mean we’re dealing with very, very large companies who have real specific security requirements.  We’re never gonna build something on the client side that’s going to fit their requirements.  So our work is really integrated in with any sort of disc encryption software that’s out there and being able to do the right things in terms of unencrypting and encrypting at the right times and everything else.

Brian: Yeah.  Because they’re being pretty transparent to you really.  I mean like yes, you can encrypt it on the disc itself, but of course it’s being unencrypted as it’s used, so you’re accessing files just like anyone else.

Barry: Right.

Brian: And I assume you have encryption on your whole transit protocol going back and I’m sure you can probably use whatever advanced encryption you – you know this is HTP traffic, right?  Going back to –

Barry: Exactly.  Yeah.  So we secure that traffic between the client and the server.  We rely on the server side from the storage security perspective, which allows us to do all of our de-dupe inside the storage site too.

Brian: And then how about – people were asking about like, so with the backend database having de-dupe at your storage level, is there any value to that?  Or doesn’t it really matter because you’re doing single instance file storage.  So like if my SAN does de-dupe, like I don’t really – I don’t care if my sand does de-dupe because it doesn’t really help anything because you’re already de-duping within your file storage.

Barry: Yeah.  You only gotta store everything one time.  You may get a little benefit here and there, but mostly we should take care of most of it.

Brian: Especially if they’re doing like block level, but yeah – but your store – I mean your store doesn’t have to be fast.

Barry: Right.  Exactly.

Brian: I mean really because you’re not booting these – you’re not booting 1,500 uses off your store.  It’s like you’re more like a NAS, I mean it’s not –

Barry: Tier 2 storage, and that’s the reason why.  Because we rely on the local execution wherever it may be and that’s why we get so many users per server and that’s why our storage costs are so much less than VDI.

Brian: Okay.  So I think that’s probably about it.  I mean next – oh, someone asked about the – so you got this free trial, the question is the free trial, is that a full featured evaluation or what’s the story on that?

Barry: The free trial will allow you full featured except it’s gonna use virtual clients.  So you can use Windows 7 or XP virtual clients.  If you want to use physical clients just give us a – send us an email and we’ll get you the trial, no problem.

Brian: Wait, how does that work?  Because doesn’t your agent – the agent like just checks to make sure it’s running in a VM with the trial?

Barry: Yeah.

Brian: But fundamentally it doesn’t – it’s no different if it’s in a VM or a physical, it’s just –

Barry: Yeah.  We just enable physical machines on a different version of the software.  But if somebody wants to use physical machines and they wanna trial it, we have no problem.  Send us an email.

Brian: All right.  Okay.  So let’s kind of come out with some final thoughts.  Gabe, I don’t know if you have any sort of final questions.  Oh, how to get the two to one beta?  Let’s see, I’m just reading the chats.  So the two for one, that’s beta now – beta soon – beta –?

Barry: Two to one.  So we’re gonna add layers in from the two to one perspective and we’ll start that in a beta this month or early next month.

Brian: And who do people – how do people get on that?

Barry: I would just go to and submit a request and we can certainly –

Brian: Is that an obvious link?  Or that’s just –?

Barry: Or you can –

Brian: Email you.  What’s your email address?

Barry: It’s

Brian: Barry.phillips – p-h-i-l-l-

Barry: – i-p-s.

Brian: All right.  Awesome.  Thank you for sharing that.  And we can email you all of our questions, technical questions, marketing questions, future questions, anything that we need is going to you.

Barry: Thank you very much, Brian.

Brian: So, okay let’s see, that’s question – users per database, you said like 1,500 users.  

Barry: I mean the database piece, I mean it all depends on – you can stack lots of servers together, right?  And it just depends how many you wanna put inside there because obviously the more – the more users you have in a volume, the better the de-dupe happens.  And once again the de-dupe is not just in the storage site, but it’s what doesn’t get transferred over the wide area network, right?  So that’s a critical piece.  It’s a combination of storage plus WAN optimization together.

Brian: All right.  So I think that’s about all.  At least from my standpoint.

Barry: Any questions more from you, Gabe, or anything you saw in the chat that I missed that we should ask now?

Gabe: No, nothing.  Nothing really.  There’s been a lot of talk of off line VDI and things like that and I mean, but so – but this isn’t – to me this is just about desktop management and I like that the parts where this and VDI converge and that stuff is exciting to me.  But I mean even without the sexiness of desktop virtualization or a VDI, I just love this as a desktop management solution.  I mean it just – it’s the kind of thing that I wish would have been around when I was doing desktop management.  You know it’s – I don’t know.  I’ve been a fan, we’ve been talking with Wanova for a very long time, so this isn’t very – I love hearing it all spelled out like this, but I’d keep it up because this is great stuff.

Brian: Now so where are we gonna see you guys next?  Synergy’s coming up, Briforum UK’s coming up Briforum London, VMworld 

Jesus: Yeah, so we’ll both be at Briforum London?  So you’re gonna see that demo where you can reboot from your remote ISO and whatever.

Brian: Oh cool.  Oh you’ll have that demo.  Oh yeah.

Jesus: You can see that at the Intel booth and Wanova’s gonna have a booth as well.

Brian: Cool.  So anything else, Barry, Jesus, any sort of last thoughts you wanna leave us with?

Jesus: Well actually, you know the reason I’m such a big fan of what Wanova does is that it is a better way of managing desktops.  Right?  So you get all the benefits of centralized management of layers but at the same time you don’t sacrifice the user experience because, you know the desktop still executes locally.  Right?  There’s no reason why you have to manage centrally and execute centrally.  All right?  So I just think it gives you the best of both worlds really.

Barry: And that’s the piece I don’t think people understand.  You can even tell by some of the questions, right?  It’s the fact that whenever they hear central images they thing virtualization.  They just don’t understand that you can centralize those images, have local execution without a client hypervisor.  And then that’s gonna appeal to many more users than requiring a VDI or client hypervisor or something like that.

Brian: Yeah, literally the laptop, it’s the same laptop.  It’s just installing an agent that does continuous backup and file replacement sort of as needed.  Well, so on that note, Barry Phillips, CMO of Wanova, thank you so much for taking a super long drive from Los Gatos up to here.

Barry: I think it’ll be shorter on the way home.

Brian: Yeah.

Gabe: Hey wait, so Los Gatos that’s where I bought my iPhone.

Brian: Yeah.

Gabe: Because for some reason my Blackberry maps told me that that was the closest Apple Store to me and I was in –

Barry: To Omaha?

Gabe: – at the time.  No, no, no, I was in California, but I – and I was near Cupertino.  I just remember seeing that and so – and I’m like you know what?  Screw it, I’m gonna go buy an iPhone.  And so I punch in Apple Store into the Blackberry apps or maps program and it for whatever reason sent me to Los Gatos.

Brian: Mind you we have – there’s two Apple Stores in San Francisco itself, not to mention – no, three actually in San Francisco, not to mention another ten like on the way.  I think you had to pass ten Apple Stores to get there.

Gabe: No doubt.  And it was – it’s mainly – well, it’s Blackberry’s fault or whoever – whoever did that whole map thing –

Brian: It’s their fault for not letting Google Maps be on the Blackberry.

Gabe: Well, it was Google Maps I think.  But it was my – I just didn’t know where Los Gatos was so I just thought okay, what the hell, I’ll go to that one.  It says it’s the closest.  And, you know an hour and a half and several mountains later I’m down, you know east – west of San Jose.

Brian: Well, so that’s where Barry’s going today.  So thank you for taking the drive up, Barry.  And also Jesus Garcia, Alliance Marketing Manager for Intel and Desktop Virtualization.  Jesus, thank you for driving down from Folsom?  Sacramento?

Jesus: Folsom.

Brian: Folsom.  Yeah.  And Gabe as always, you know.

Gabe: Yeah, it’s a pleasure. 

Brian: Yeah, thanks for filling in.  So and to all of you thank you so much for listening.  To those in the chat we’ll keep the chat running for a little while so feel free to keep on talking there.  We threw Barry under the bus with his email address, so  Just feel free to email him.

Barry: Yeah, I’ve got a great for the appropriate person.  Yeah I’ve got a great spam filter.  It’s all the good stuff in the spam filter and it brings all the bad stuff in.

Brian: That’s good.  Right, so all the stuff from your boss is gone.  And all the stuff from actual customers in the field is going right to you.  So that’s awesome.  Well, to both of you guys, to Wanova, Intel, thank you so much for sponsoring the show today and for making the time for the conversation.  Thank you all for listening.  From San Francisco my name is Brian Madden and I hope you all have a great day.


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Waiting ?? :-)