Brian & Gabe LIVE: Listen to the recording of today's live internet radio show, Episode 1.

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Gabe & I have always wanted to do some kind of live internet show. Our first show was today, at 8am PST / 11am EST, 4pm GMT.

Thanks to all who joined in! We're do another show next week live from BriForum. :)

Show Transcript

0:00:00 Jo Maitland talks about Citrix's purchase of Cloud.com

Brian: Well good morning, from San Francisco it's eight o'clock in the morning and this is the first live show that we have ever done, so I guess we should do a first quick check. Gabe, are you there?

Gabe: I'm here, can you hear me?

Brian: You are loud and clear.

Gabe: Fantastic.

Brian: You know who's also here? I have Jo Maitland in the room.

Jo: Hi, cheers Gabe, how are you?

Gabe: Hi how are you?

Jo: Good.

Brian: So I guess first of all, I should say, our idea for this show, we're doing a live show, is, we try to do, Gabe and I always try to do webcasts, but the webcasts are all so, I don't know, manufactured, and I'll be saying things like, Oh, hey, what do you think of this, and Gabe's like, well Brian, I think thatÖ' and it's all scripted and whatever. So, Gabe and I always have conversations with each other, like, he'll be gone, I don't talk to him for a few days or whatever, and then we catch up and talk about all this cool stuff, and we're like ëman, we should record this,' so that's what we're doing, and then we realized that we can use Amazon web services and their edge network and their streaming servers and everything and I think this show is costing us something like four dollars an hour to stream out, so that's cool, too. So that's the show. So the reason Jo is here is because I wake up today, and it says ëCitrix bought Cloud.com', and Jo is the executive editor of our SearchCloudComputing website, another TechTarget website, as well as you have a show online as well, Cloud Cover TV. Let me ask you, so Citrix buys Cloud.com, I've never heard of cloud.com

Gabe: Yeah, what is cloud.com?

Jo: Yeah, nor has anybody, really. They're a three-year-old company out here in Silicon Valley. They kid of cut their teeth initially with software that's basically known as infrastructure as a service software, so you take a bunch of servers and storage, you plop this software down on top of it, and you have an Amazon web services-like offering. There's a bunch of companies that they compete with; Eucalyptus is a really big known name here, run by Martin Mikos, the former MySQL guy, so that's a bit of a coup or a side angle to this story that Citrix did not buy Eucalyptus, which is the bigger name here. I think the reason they went after cloud.com is the open stack software. So OpenStack is basically an open source version of infrastructure as a service, so anyone can pick it up. If you're a hosting company, you know, you want to get in the cloud business, you want to compete with an Amazon-type offering, you just grab the code, the OpenStack code. Cloud.com has merged its code base with OpenStack.

Brian: Which Citrix is already all over OpenStack anyway.

Jo: Citrix is already all over it.

Gabe: That was a big thing at Synergy, wasn't it?

Jo: Yes it was, and this is an interesting thing, they announced it as a thing called Project Olympus, which was going to be later this year their sort-of commercial supported version of -stack implantation. So the question is now does Citrix just dump that, now that they've bought cloud.com or what happens to Project Olympus. You know, also, interestingly, Simon Crosby is gone, he left some big shoes to fill over on the data center and cloud side of Citrix. So this is sort of a quick move by Citrix in order to keep the momentum they've already started.

Gabe: Well, so someone in the chat room is suggesting that this is to compete with V-cloud.

Jo: Yeah, it's like the open alternative to V-cloud

Brian: well, okay, I have a bunch of questions: so cloud.com has this software so that if I want to start my own hosting company to compete against Amazon or whatever, I can buy this, but Amazon, they write all their own stuff, and they're Amazon, they're freaking huge, so what chance in the world can I actually have it I want to build something that can compete against them, especially if I have to license my whole Infrastructure layer?

Jo: Yeah, slim. Well, OpenStack, remember, is free, so that's one thing you might have, but the other thing you might have, if you're a local provider in Germany, say, where there are very different privacy laws, you might be able to provide a service to a company in Germany that might not be able to touch Amazon's web service.

Brian: Or you need a HIPAA-compliant.. it's a little niche-y type thing. So you're going to an event later today for VMware, right?

Jo: yeah, so I think Citrix is trying to steal the thunder a bit here.

Brian: Yeah, I think 100%. We don't know what this event from VMware is, but the rumor is that they're announcing vSphere 5 today. Or has that been confirmed?

Jo: pretty much, that's the sort of sneaky announcements they've sent out to analysts, they've hinting at vSphere 5

Brian: so WMware's going to announce vSphere 5, so of course Citrix, it's like their big "F-you" to them.

Jo: Right. vSpere 5 has nothing to do with the cloud, really, it's their server virtualization stuff. You know, v-cloud director, and there are a bunch of other products that speak directly to the cloud.com stuff that isn't vSphere.

Brian: So are they going to do that today, too?

Jo: We don't know.

Brian: But it's funny, because Citrix could have announced they bought cloud.com yesterday or over the weekend

Gabe: They're announcing the buzz-worthy headline today.

Brian: It's their M.O. This is exactly what they did when they bought Xen. On the day that VMware went public, Citrix spent 500 million, now it wasn't real cash, but they spent 500 million buying Xen, and every fucking article that was written that day says ëalso, Citrix buys Xen'. It's the same shit again I think.

Jo: I wonder how much of that yet has really transferred into market-share. They're clearly a competitor, and they have good technology, but how much are they really crunching into VMware's datacenter business.

Brian: So how much of this is real business anyway? Is this products that people are actually using? Or is this all in the future in the cloud?

Jo: it's in the future, yeah, so, which does now give this OpenStack and Citrix with Crloud.com, it does give them a chance. Everything besides Amazon web services now is just throwing shit at the wall and seeing what's sticking.

Brian: So someone suggested earlier that Citrix just bought cloud.com for the domain name.

Jo: (laughter) We recon it's at least 100 million or more.

Brian: I saw tech crunch said two to two-fifty.

Jo: Did they? Whoa. Yeah, so that's a lot for a domain name.

Brian: Anyway, I guess we can move on, this is something that is not 100% in our area, but when I woke up today, that's what everyone was saying, and Jo, I guess, you've got stuff to do right now.

Jo: Yeah, I've got to get to the VMware press conference, but call anytime if you guys want to chat about cloud stuff.

Brian: It's Cloudcovertv.com and searchcloudcomputing.com

Jo: thank you.

Brian: So that was cool, because I had literally never heard of cloud.com, so thanks, Jo, for that. And Jo and I occasionally talk about desktops in the cloud so I think we'll able to do stuff like that more in the future.

Gabe: And you're in the valley, too, so there are all sorts of people that can come by and talk about all sorts of things with us.

0:07:45 VMware View 5

Brian: Yeah, and incidentally, someone's putting in the chat about View 5. So I haven't heard anything today. Like Jo said today, VMware's announcement today is not, we do not know what it is about yet. I've heard about vSpere 5, but I have not heard anything about View 5, so I don't think today's announcement is about View 5. I don't know if you've heard anything, Gabe.

Gabe: No, what time's that meeting at, do you know?

Brian: I don't know. What time is it, Justin, you're going over there? Yeah, Justin says noon. Now View 5, I think they're planning that for VMworld. I don't know, though, I haven't heard anything for features on View 5. View 4.6, that's what added that security gateway, it took that local mode out of beta, whatever they're working on, I don't know, unless it's the persona stuff.

Gabe: Yeah, I haven't heard anything, either, but my fingers are crossed for Persona, because I feel like that's the thing people have been waiting for. I imagine there are a lot of corporations that have their fingers crossed for Persona and Windows 7 support.

Brian: Windows 7 support is there, I think in View 4.5.

Gabe: Yeah.

0:09:09 Gabe's Chromebook

Brian: So, Gabe, there are a couple of things I want to talk about with you. I was on vacation for the past couple of weeks, so I was only half paying attention to what was happening while I was gone. And I know that you bought a Chromebook, and I saw your headline which was ëI bought a Chromebook and I want to return it.

Gabe: I haven't returned it yet, that's because I have a pile of stuff that has to go back to Amazon, so they shipped me one more thing that I have to return, so I have to wait for one more thing before I just take this giant package of stuff to the post office to return. So, you know, it's just Chrome running on a netbook that costs five hundred dollars, and I can get that for two hundred dollars, so it just wasn't worth it.

Brian: It's as simple as that?

Gabe: More or less, of course there's more to the Chrome OS, where they had to make it so that it could run on the hardware, and such. You know, the file browser was awful, the integration to SD cards that upload to Picasa, it just wasn't very full featured, and actually looked like it was just thrown together. I realize it's just a v. 1 and there always has to be a first version of something, but this first version of something is definitely not worth 500 bucks. Maybe for organizations. What I keep hearing is that I'm missing the point, and that it's meant for organizations to use, I just don't see it I guess.

Brian: So is the hardware okay? Is it just regular off-the-shelf netbook hardware? Is it a netbook or a full-size laptop?

Gabe: No, actually, it's a little larger than a netbook

Brian: So I tried a netbook before I had a MacBook Air, which I love the Air for two reasons: number one, it's got a full-size keyboard, and number two it's got a full sized track pad with palm-rest area. The netbook I had before that, it was a 90% keyboard, and I'll tell you what, man, that 90% keyboard, I just couldn't use it, I couldn't type at full speed. And the track pad was an inch tall, and I swear, just two inches wide.

Gabe: The track pad was definitely small, but the keyboard felt real, the screen was large enough to support a full-size keyboard. Really, typing on it was fine, but if you try to go to YouTube on it, the video starts slow, and if you try to make it full-screen, it gets jittery until it catches up, and you can tell, it's just barely powerful enough to do what it needs to do.

Brian: It kind of reminds me of, so, it goes back to that Motorola Atrix, the phone that plugs into the dock, and forget for a second the whole dock and how much bullshit I think that is, and the whole aspect of, they show the Atrix, and they're like ëyou dock it with you laptop dock' and I swear, it's like 30 seconds for this thing to come up online, you wait for it and your windows are redrawing, and the orientation is changing, and it has to change the resolution. I don't know what it's doing. It's just so a party trick that took forever. And I guess the only way you'd actually like it was if you were actually at a party or something, and you didn't notice that it was, you knowÖ

Gabe: And even with these HTML 5 clients to help you access Windows apps from Chromebooks and even HTML 5 clients, they're complicated solutions right now. There are extra layers in there that need to be there, gateways and such that translate the RDP or HDX whatever data to text based data, so that the browser can actually render that.

Brian: Wait wait, what?

Gabe: So, HTML 5 thin clients, this is my companion article, after I got the Chromebook, I learned how these things worked. The way they work is, there is a gateway.

Brian: I'm sorry, go back one second. So when you say HTML 5 clients, this is, Ericom's got their client, right?

Gabe: Right

Brian: And then Citrix is demo-ing one. Are you talking about one of these products versus the other?

Gabe: I do not know how these products work. There's another one called Spark View that's an independent guy that wrote an RDP client. It works in the exact same way. But, there's something called Web Sockets that is part of HTML 5, and this allows you to open one connection, and stream data from it without normal http-type send, acknowledge, stop, send, acknowledge, stop, send, acknowledge, stop. So Web Sockets is great, it allows people to send data, but it's only text data. So, the way that these HTML 5 thin clients work is there's a gateway, basically, sitting on the server side that translates or re-encodes the RDP data into text based data.

Brian: So it's a binary translation, it's just turning it into ASCII type information.

Gabe: That's exactly what it's doing.

Brian: Oh wow.

Gabe: It sends that to the HTML 5 client where there is a Java script, basically, application running, using another feature of HTML 5 running, called canvas, that allows Java script to address every single pixel, in the window, and it actually takes that text data and draws every single pixel independently, and actually, it looks really good.

Brian: Even on the chrome book?

Gabe: Considering all that's happening, it looks pretty good. You can tell that there's a difference, and it just doesn't feel like RDP, or, I guess all I've used is RDP, but it really doesn't, but all things considered, it looks fairly decent, considering all the things that are going on in the background.

Brian: So this is JavaScript, can you actually access the source code? I don't know, can JavaScript be compiled? When you download this thing can you look at it, then just change it?

Gabe: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it's a compiled app, it's a script, right?

0:15:05 Blackberry Playbook

Brian: I don't know how that works. So while we're talking about these devices and stuff, I don't know if I've told you, so I got a Blackberry Playbook, and it was my intention, I don't know, I figured, I have an iPad now, and this thing's smaller, so I was thinking it could be like an iPad, and I would just use it, just like a smaller iPad, basically. Although, ironically, I think it was actually more expensive than the iPad.

Gabe: Aren't they like 600 bucks?

Brian: Yeah, it was a lot. So the thing is, I get this thing.

Gabe: You bought it with miles or something, right?

Brian: Yeah, I didn't pay for it. I mean I didn't pay money for it. But, I don't know, I thought I was going to write an article on this. Man, this thing sucks so much, I don't know if you saw my tweets, it's weird, cause it's a tablet and it's awesome and it's kind of cool because you can use your fingers and move out into the bezel, and the bezel is a touch-screen area as well. So it's Blackberry, and it runs some sort of multi-tasking OS, and the interface is really awesome on everything, but A: it's Blackberry, so there's no applications for it, so there's no, they have their own built in Twitter, and their own built in YouTube viewer, but all the apps I actually use I couldn't find them, and B, the craziest thing, there's no mail, or calendar, or contact app for it, so you're supposed to pair it for your Blackberry, it's almost like a thin client for your phone in some ways. And so I looked it up, and they're like ëYeah, well, we just wanted to get that out there.' I guess the problem is because Blackberry Enterprise server can only support one account per mailbox, or some crap like that, so, you can't actually use it. There's no email on it. There's no apps, no Hulu, no Netflix, no nothing, and no email or anything like that. I gave it to Justin, which you use it for what, what did you say? Movies? He watches movies on it.

Gabe: Oh, at least it has a media player.

Brian: Yeah, and he said it plays more formats than the iPad does, so that's cool, and I guess you can just drag and drop files on it, so you don't have to deal with iTunes and synchronizing and all that crap. And I guess there are a bunch of other tablet or slate-like things coming out. There's not even a Citrix client for this thing.

0:17:21 MacBook Air

Brian: So, let's look at the chat, I kind of forgot about that, it's 10 inch or 12 inch air, I use the 10 inch air, and, incidentally, on the MacBook Air topic, my old MacBook was a MacBook Pro, i7, dual core, I don't know, 4, 8 gigs of ram, I don't know what it was, it was big and fast. And when I got the MacBook Air, I was afraid that because the benchmarks on the MacBook Air were like half the speed, half the speed of the benchmarks on the MacBook Pro, and I was kind of afraid that it would suck, and the Air would be myÖ

Gabe: But they were equal to our old MacBook Pros, the 2008-era, the non-unibody ones.

Brian: Yeah, the one that I lobbied to our boss that we had to replace, because we did too much shit, we needed faster computers. Although, to be fair, that was before Justin, so we were rendering things on our own computers, but that's the thing, I'm no longer rendering anything on my laptop, and I don't have a VM, since Office 2011 came out, and it has a real version of, well, it's still based on Entourage roots, but it's called Outlook, and it's better than what Entourage was, but I just run outlook natively, and I don't need a VM anymore, so VM, no video editing, so I'm a user now, my apps are Office and Chrome. But, on the MacBook Air, even though it's like 1.6 gigahertz, whatever, I can still have 50 Chrome tabs open across four windows, it's fine full speed, like Office, all that stuff. So what I realized is yeah, it's half as fast, but I was never stretching the limits of my MacBook Pro, anyway, so maybe that just means, like, I don't know, before, as I was doing whatever I was doing all day long I was using 10% of my computer, but now I'm using 20%, because my computer's only half as fast, but that's the MacBook Air, I'm really happy with it.

Gabe: I'm tired of hearing about it, I like my MacBook Pro.

0:19:29 Kaviza versus hosted VDI and SMB

Brian: Okay, so, VDI and SMB, let's talk about this, and I know we're behind just looking at the stuff on, man, it's hard to read and talk at the same time.

Gabe: Yeah it is. So, my first thought when you say VDI and SMB is Kaviza. Just hands-down, it's so freaking easy to stand up, I swear, if you have two free hours this afternoon, you can be provisioning desktops with Kaviza. I hope that Citrix takes something with it and leverages how cool it is and does something with it.

Brian: You know what I say, though? You say SMB, VDI and say Kaviza, I don't know man, am I building that shit myself? Like if you say VDI for SMB, I think I'm going hosted.

Gabe: ShaneTech Mark says ìSure, use XenApp.î So yeah, evaluate whether you need VDI, of course, but then, you could be right, use hosted, but I'm telling you, if you haven't used Kavisa, it's ridiculously simple if you want to have this stuff in house.

Brian: But I can'tÖ this goes back to we were setting up, I know I said this, you and me, Gabe, even though we're focused on desktops, we're still thinking about virtualization and cloud and all that, but, when I'm setting up, even when I was setting up when we wanted to do this show live, we were looking at servers and server requirements and hosting, and we looked at Amazon and realized that we could pay them a dollar an hour to run our server for whatever we needed it, I mean, why would anyone buy a server ever again? And especially if you're SMB and especially if you're running desktops. Because, the thing is, Kaviza is desktops only, so one of my things is, a lot of times I'm not a fan of VDI because of the limitations because you've got slower connections or you need offline or whatever, but what I wonder about, though, is if you decided that VDI works for you, if Kaviza would work for you, then I think also a hosted company would work for you, and I did an article a few weeks ago about the hosted desktops, desktops as a service, desktops in the cloud, so originally it was DeskTone, and now, well, I feel like DeskTone was the first one that was really trying to sell desktops direct, but Citrix partnered with Rackspace, and we've got no CSC and Wipro, IBM, Dell, everyone is doing this type of stuff, and if I'm SMB, there's no way that I'm putting in my own servers to run freaking desktops. If I'm going to run a desktop on my desktop and do the old way, fine, but if I'm putting it on a server, man, I'm never buying a server again. If I'm SMB I don't think I'm ever buying a server. Even our company, with 600 people.

Gabe: Well, what are you going to do, just throw out your old stuff?

Brian: Yes.

Gabe: You are not. If you already have the hardware, you're not going to invest in something and throw that stuff away.

Brian: I'm looking around the room at all this shit I can throw away right now. What is that, do we need that?

Gabe: I know plenty of MB's that bought hardware, and they could use it with this thing.

Brian: But for what? We're talking a dollar a user per month, twelve bucks a year, no, a dollar a day, that's a little bit more. 360 bucks a year, still thoughÖ

Gabe: 360 bucks a year, compared to I already have the hardware and all I have to do is buy the licensing for 120 dollarsÖ

Brian: Your old hardware? Give me a break.

Gabe: 120 bucks a seat 130 bucks a seat for Kaviza.

Brian: Per year.

Gabe: Concurrent

Brian: Per year.

Gabe: with maintenance

Brian: Per Year.

Gabe: It's 20%, it's 135 bucks I think.

Brian: I would check your numbers.

Gabe: I would just go and look at the website.

Brian: If I do that, I would move away from the chat, and I would lose everything, and be way, way off. Dude, I think there's no way. The thing is, so you get this old hardware you have laying around is going to run all your desktops and be all awesome? Come on. Like what is your old hardware? What is my old hardware? It's like a dual-core, Xeon.

Gabe: That's fine, but if you still look at overall cost here, you're looking at 365 bucks per person per year, versus, and that's per named person now, we're talking versus 130, 135 bucks per concurrent user, for the first year, plus 20% maintenance after that. That's a lot of hardware.

Brian: I don't know. I'm hosting it. SMB's out there, and look, if you guys think about it, for those out there that are VDI experts, and provide services to SMB's, you know, then if they're hosted it's just way easier to deal with and you can make a few nickels on the re-selling of these services. I know I use this analogy so much, about you need whatever like you need a hole in your head, so, amongst the holes you need in your head are running your own VDI for SMB. How big is SMB? Let's say 100. Frankly, though, our company has 600 people, I don't know why we own any servers. I don't know why anyone who's not Amazon or Apple owns their own servers anymore. I think in 5 years this is going to be laughable that we own our own servers.

Gabe: We've got a lot of websites, TechTarget does as a whole, but I get you. Maybe it's the whole home-grown platform and modifications and all that, there's reasons.

Brian: Man, whatever. If I'm an SMB, man, get the hell out. Okay, look atÖ

Gabe: You spent the last two days in EC2, that's why you're thinking like this.

Brian: But the thing is, though, remember, VDI's not cheap. Like if I'm an SMB and I have desktops, keep on using desktops, like if I have laptop users or actual traditional desktops, I wouldn't know that I would change that right now. I'd probably buy them Windows 7 desktops, let them run another 5 years, and we'll see what the industry did in the mean time. But if I decide I need VDI, even though Kaviza is easier, I'm still dealing with disk images, I don't know, and then you have to deal with HDX, I don't see it. And if you need remote access, Log Me In is free. So give them traditional desktops. If they have an actual physical desk top they can access it remotely from the desktop with Log Me In, and I think we're done.

Gabe: Ryan G, I think this is Ryan Galliard from Citrix IRC, he wonders why Kaviza is so much easier than Xen Desktop because it takes only 5 minutes now to stand up a DDC and a couple of VM's, and Ryan that's a really good point, and now that Citrix actually owns Kaviza, it's probably we're doing a head-to-head, so look for that act at BriForum.

Brian: No, that's bullshit, they wouldn't have bought Kaviza if they didn'tÖ

Gabe: I know, that's why I didn't do it. I didn't say you were going to do it.

Brian: Man, I tried, XenDesktop 5, when they talk about it's easier to install, that is because they built a bigger wizard on the install. Like XenDesktop 5 is no more simple than XenDesktops before it, which that now, it's just the easy install wizard, which, by the way, only works if you're doing everything exactly in their way, and it's only like, you know, it creates the groups for you, it creates everything, but I feel like that's cool for a demo environment, which the reality is, because even when I did that VDI testing, I couldn't use their easy-install wizard. I did it, and I was like, ìWow, this is not at all like I can actually use it.î So I ended up tearing it all apart and rebuilding it myself anyway, which by the way took me like four days to get all the, it took me four days on my one to get XenDesktop running for my single, one user, single-server environment.

Gabe: Yeah, it's already gone off the screen, but somebody asked how that went.

Brian: Well, maybe that makes me a dumbass. Well, I think they asked when was I going to write the article to follow up, and it's kind of funny, because the mistake I made with that is I said ìI'm going to do a really good job, write an awesome article, it's going to be really awesome, so of course that just means it's been on my to-do list.

Gabe: And then you've forgotten your experience.

Brian: No, oh, oh, I took notes. No I did not forget.

Gabe: You took notes?

Brian: Well, um (laughter), these are not... I should just publish these notes. Do we have a bleeping sound here? I guess there's no FCC here so we can say whatever we want. Okay, look, let me talk about that, because I get asked about that a lot at the shows we do. So I did this February-March. And I said what is was going to be was, you know, head to head, like XenDesktop verses View, but to be honest, it was just me, and I was connecting to a persistent desktop that I owned, I had admin rights, and I just kept it running all the time. In some ways it was more about testing HDX versus PC over IP than it was about testing XenDesktop over View, because I wasn't getting into provisioning, and all that kind of stuff. Although I guess I did test the whole stack, I did go through secure gateway or secure access, or sorry, Citrix Access Gateway or Web Interface, and with view I used the view Connection Server to proxy. But I'll say my experience is this, and first of all, by the way, I am not the right use case for VDI, because I am always mobile, and I'm just, there's a lot of time on airplanes and everything. It's kind of funny, I have different hardware, I have some YZ and some HP for thin clients. The hardware I ended up using most is this HP laptop, running Windows 7 imbedded, which I just turned off the write filter, basically used, it's kind of cheating.

Gabe: I have one of those in my garage.

Brian: Maybe I had Dropbox Client installed on my thin client, I'm making air quotes with my fingers right now. But, I'm not the right guy for VDI, right, but I'll say that I, it was cool. Here's the thing, so first of all, HDX versus PC over IP, they're fine, they're really both fine. And I can find examples of where HDX is awesome and PC over IP looked like the biggest joke that a bunch of kindergarteners put together, and I can find use cases where PC over IP freaking rocks, and you're like, ìHow is the whole world not using PC over IP, why would anyone use Citrix?î And frankly, sometimes it was network conditions, sometimes it was use, sometimes it was just where I was, sometimes it was the will, the force of the universe. But I will say this is what lead me to that article, I will say this, now this is a few months ago, but A: Citrix has way more clients, there are more platforms supported for HDX, that was a real thing the effected me directly. Although, to be fair, I could use those RDP clients, that connect RDP via view, but the problem is, well the Wyse Pocket Cloud is View Aware, but the other ones weren't View aware, so I had to connect through back to my View Connection Server, so I had to open a route to the internet to connect to RDP directly back to my desktop if I'm doing it with a regular RDP client. So that wasn't really like, I could do that with Citrix, VMware, or a regular desktop, so, you know, the thing I didn't like about View, the thing that I didn't like about PC over IP was, you know that View connection server, they've got their own connection broker, right? But that does not use SSL. So View is using whatever port it uses, so PC over IP is like UPD 55, 59 something, I forget what it is right now.

Gabe: That's a GeekOut question.

Brian: Yeah, well, I would not know the answer off the top of my head, but so the thing is, so View, here's the thing, that port is not open everywhere. Like in our office, and I don't know if it's because we have asinine, crazy, 1970's style policies for our IT departments, but I could not connect to View from our office unless I put a help desk ticket in. And the other problem that I had was this also happened when I was going to hotels. So you know a lot of times when you go to hotels and it says you have to buy internet access and is says like 9.95 per night for quote basic access and it's 19.95 for advanced/VPN, you have to use the advanced/VPN option, so that kind of sucks. And obviously I could have put this behind an advance like F5 VPN, but we've written about this before. Then I'm taking my great UDP traffic, which is awesome, from PC over IP, I love that PC over IP uses UDP, but then we're wrapping TCP around it and we're wrapping the overhead we don't really need and we're just, it kind of depends, it just doesn't end up as cool. But, at the end of the day, though, I feel like PC over IP is fine. I feel like HDX is fine. I like that there are more clients for Citrix, but I think that they're both fine. I guess I should write that up at some point.

0:32:30 Citrix IRC

Gabe: So you know, we've got some people that are talking a lot about storage. Man, that whole time you were talking, we got people talking about storage in the chat room. Moving from one thing to the next.

Brian: Better than listening to me.

Gabe: So it looks like there are a lot of members from Citrix IRC out here. I called out Ryan Galliard before and I think I saw ShaneTech Mark and so a lot of Citrix IRC guys in here. Did you even check out Citrix IRC yet? I wrote an article about it yesterday.

Brian: Yeah, I did, because I did it when Ryan, we met Ryan at Synergy here in San Francisco like a month ago, two months, whatever it was, and I was like, ìMan, IRC? I don't want to have some stupid, old, text client that has like standard width fonts and it's going to be green and it's going to be weird.î It's going to be like using an Ericom council.

Gabe: They might be different now, we don't know.

Brian: I just don't want some old, weird looking thing. I got chat, and it's nice, and I got IRC, and he's like ìYeah, man, you need to, you're being a dumbass right now.î He didn't say that, but that's what he was intimating.

Gabe: He was thinking that.

Brian: And he's like, ìThere's a web client, you don't even need to think about it, you just go log in, and it's awesome.î

Gabe: Yeah, it's not like you have to dial into Freenet anymore to get to it.

Brian: Literally, dial in.

Gabe: So, I just wrote an article about it. If you coo to join.citrix.irc.com, you can check this thing out yourself, and actually, maybe, it might be all Citrix IRC people in the chat room right now that are listening to this, so maybe you already know this.

Brian: Someone asked, why not just use Citrix IRC chat for this show, and I'll say two things. First of all, I didn't just want to come in and take over, I don't want to put the IRC client on our website, and put everythingÖ They might be having actual conversations they actually prefer to have, without putting two JackassesÖ

Gabe: Like actually helping people.

Brian: Yeah, yeah. And the other thing, too, I know Ryan said they're not just Citrix anymore, but I still feel like it's if we say, ìOh, it's Brian and Gabe on Citrix IRC,î it's going to feel like we're only talking about Citrix or sponsored by Citrix or whatever. So I don't know if they're ever going to change Citrix IRC to VDIRC, maybe not, Desktop IRC, whatever. That was the thing. I will say, though, I do like that Citrix IRC exists, and I did check it out over the weekend when I was thinking about maybe using it as the chat for this thing. And, man, at like 2am on a Saturday night, Pacific Time, there are still half a dozen people in there, kind of. You could just be like, ìHello?î and they were like, ìHey!î You're right, it's 24/7, so I think that's myÖ

Gabe: I posted yesterday, as I joke, ìI can't print,î and no details, and somebody, I think it was Jarian Gibson, was like, ìGabe, you can't print?î So, even though I was joking, they were still willing to help out, and so if you're listening, and you hadn't read the article yesterday, go check it out, and keep it in mind if you have support problems in the future, because it's a hoot-n-holler chat room. You just pop in, it's like picking up a stock line, you just pick it up and talk.

Brian: That's cool.

Gabe: And that's what this is like. I would highly recommend it.

Brian: Incidentally, Gabe and I are connected right now via Skype, that's how we're getting the audio together, so it's our idea that when we do these shows in the future, that we'll either allow people to come in live, via Skype, or even for other guests. So I'm thinking I don't want to turn this show in to an interview show, necessarily, I don't want to do vignettes on individual companies, but there's a lot of people who I meet with, especially in the Bay area, who are just, we have these conversations that are awesome. And I just wish that we were doing this and able to share it. So we can have the two of us, and sort of randomly, regularly, sort of get a guest in with us, who can just chat about whatever we're talking about, and that would be cool.

Gabe: Yeah, this is a fun rig, too. You know my favorite part about this whole radio show thing is it's live, that's number one, but number two is, if it weren't for conferences, I would never, ever have to shave. And, come on, we have BriForum coming up, so I shaved three days ago because it was my birthday because I was going out, and like in a week, I might shave for BriForum.

Brian: If it's your birthday, doesn't it mean?

Gabe: I was going out with friends, and

Brian: It wasn't your wife's birthday.

Gabe: yeah, but she kind of made the look like I should shave.

Brian: Right, well, you chose to shave on your own because you love her, she didn't make any looks.

Gabe: Yeah, let's go with that.

0:37:27 XenServer IntelliCache

Brian: So, a lot of people are talking about storage, as you were saying, in this chat. You know, it's funny, because I've written this before. Citrix, so XenServer IntelliCache I think is an awesome, awesome, server, and I don't know how much you know about IntelliCache. This is that thing where, you know, it's a feature of XenServer that's exposed to XenDesktop, and it basically allows you to put your master disk images on a regular network share, and then they're downloaded, block-level, sort of downloaded as they're needed, but they're cached on each of your actual VM hosts, but then that cache can be shared by multiple virtual machines. So, it's kind of like Citrix Provisioning Server, sort of, but the problem is Citrix Provisioning Server was designed in the days way before virtualization. So Citrix Provisioning Server identifies clients based on MAC address, and custom boot straps and all that kind of stuff. IntelliCache is actually built into the hypervisor and can make it so multiple machines can share disk image and it works really fast, so you can have multiple VM hosts, each with dozens, hundreds, whatever, of VMs, and then you can have your master file just sitting on a network share. So it's cool. The problem is that it requires XenServer, so it's something that maybe no one uses, I don't know.

Gabe: And that's one of the reasons why we've always said when people ask us what platform, what hypervisor should we use for desktop virtualization, if IntelliCache is a win for you, then evaluate XenServer, at least. You don't have to do vSpere ESX just because that's what you're already using for your servers, you know. So it's always worth taking a look at XenServer, it's just that not that many people use it right now.

Brian: Although, I guess, I was talking to Steve Greenburg in Arizona with their consulting company, he was saying that the number of XenDesktop deployments they're doing on XenServer is now their number one platform for XenDesktop now.

Gabe: especially for places where it's new, it's cheap. The price is right.

Brian: Yeah, you even get the pay for it support when you're buying XenDesktop anyway. The thing that's interesting about IntelliCache, though, I've always been saying the handwriting is on the wall for Provisioning Server, because IntelliCache and Provisioning Server do not do the same thing, and I kind of thought that maybe Citrix was going to get rid of Provisioning Server, because Provisioning Server is awesome, but it is based on physical machines booting, and it's not something thatÖ It just doesn't really make sense, necessarily. And I think Provisioning Server you're still supposed to put it on a physical host, and it just doesn't seem right.

Gabe: Yeah, and it's one of those things, when Citrix was putting XenDesktop together, they needed something that could stream the OS, and they already had Provisioning Server, so they just made it part of the solution and then in the mean time they built something that solves the problem better.

Brian: Yeah, now here's the thing, though. Provisioning Server, I think the handwriting is on the wall, but they just announced Provisioning Server 6.

Gabe: Oh, I think that product may just not have a home at Citrix, you know. It could spin out, still.

Brian: Well, for physical desktops it's awesome, right?

Gabe: Yeah, yeah exactly. There's still, Double-Take Flex is still a viable, the same thing, it's just now a part of Citrix, and you can use it for desktops right now because Provisioning Server there is not a desktop version available.

Brian: Right, and Wyse has their own streaming manager that does that. But here's the thing, though. To me, Citrix IntelliCache, right now it only supports shared disk images, so the benefits it gives are about multiple VMs that are accessing the same image on your NAS, or on your network server, and then that shared image is being cached down. But as you know, I feel like no one should be using shared images with VDI. Because I feel like if your VDI environment is simple enough that shared images work, you should use Terminal Server or XenApp and be done with it, and just get the same functions for one third the amount of hardware. So, IntelliCache, I love it as a concept, but I think IntelliCache has to evolve. But I haven't seen this, with XenServer 6 beta is out, and PVS 6, beta, or I can't remember, maybe the product is released, but we're on v6 for both of these products, but I still don't think we actually have IntelliCache for different VMs, because it would be cool if you could do block-level caching or something like that, and have each user has his or her own unique VM but if it sees a block across the network that it needs, it could somehow share. I don't know if that's architecturally possible, but it seems like that's what needs to happen with IntelliCache. And then once that happens, then you don't need Provisioning Server anymore in your datacenter.

Gabe: Not for virtual desktops.

Brian: Right

Gabe: So a lot of people still use PVS for not Citrix.

Brian: Or to stream the actual hypervisor.

Gabe: That's true. So there still is plenty of use for PVS and that's why I was saying about Double-Take and you mentioned Wyse, so there's still a market for that kind of technology, it's just, with regards to desktop virtualization, IntelliCache seems to be the direction that we're going to be heading.

Brian: It'd be cool though if they combined the functionality of Provisioning Server and IntelliCache and at least got them to use the same images or whatever, because then you could do that. Wait, do they have that, you said?

Gabe: No, I said they may have that. That would be a good idea if they were keeping Provisioning Server. Because otherwise, if Provisioning Server is going to be off on an island, there's almost no reason for Citrix to keep it.

Brian: Well, right, because we've criticized Citrix in the past for ignoring traditional, physical hardware. This is from the playbook of VMware, where VMware was all over, pretending physical didn't even exist anymore, pretending everything was virtualized. And then, their solution when everything has not been virtualized has not been to support the physical. Their solution has been to try to convince people to virtualize even more. But I feel like Citrix is starting to go down that path, too. It's weird to me that XenDesktop still supports streaming disk images to physical desktops, because it just seems so out of their, like, everything they're doing is just about virtualization. And maybe, I imagine in their world, they only use PVS to stream down XenClient, or something, and everything still runs in the VM.

Gabe: Yeah, I guess that's viable. I hadn't really thought about it that way. All of these things are just different uses for what we can turn these products into in the future. Yeah, it's not like there's anything else.

Brian: Someone's also writing that IntelliCache should use local memory, sorry that was a few minutes ago, instead of the drive, which I agree. That'd be awesome.

0:44:20 Pivot3

Brian: So it's funny, we opened the show by talking about SMB, VDI, and then we were talking about storage, or something like that. There's a company that's launching something new, called Pivot3, have you heard of them, Gabe?

Gabe: No.

Brian: So these guys, I actually met with them last week, let me see, I've got the guy's card here, it's, let's see, Pivot3, Lee Caswell is one of their co-founders. Lee was actually one of the first marketing people at VMware, he worked for Diane back in the early 2000, 2003. And then he went off to create, co-create this company. So they're called Pivot3, they're a storage company, but their primary market right now has been video storage, like for surveillance cameras, which is like huge, huge, huge amounts of storage. And so their customers are like casinos, and a lot of police departments that have cameras in the cars that are always recording, and that type of stuff. So they built this storage infrastructure, where they take off-the-shelf hardware, although they actually resell the hardware, so it's like they OEM Dell hardware, really. So it's like you buy a Dell rack, but it's their own software. But anyway, so you buy from them these 1-u or 2-u servers that have storage. Then they have all their software, and it's kind of like how, you know hoe Kaviza is like VDI in a box, you just plug in an extra server, and they just hook up and start talking to each other? They have the same thing. Their version, it's like a RAID across servers. I think they actually call it Race, or something like that.

Gabe: Didn't Egenera, is that the blade frame, back in the day?

Brian: Yeah, well they're kind of a different thing. Well, Egenera is still around, they just doing it all in software, I think they're partnering with Dell or IBM or something like that. But yeah, where they had, you plugged in, they had cards you plugged in that had processor and memory, and they had this thing called the Processor Area Network, and so you could have one chassis. It's almost like blades, plugging blades into a chassis, but each blade, instead of being a discrete computer, had processor and memory resources you could map, and then carve up on your own. So it was like blades with variable boundaries, sort of. So what Pivot3 is doing is, so you're basically buying this 1-u appliance, that's full of hard drives, and then you can buy two of them for redundancy, then you need more space and you just buy a third one and plug it in, and it just automatically figures it out, it automatically stripes data across all three, and gives you the parody or redundancy or whatever. So think of it exactly what you have with RAID, like RAID 5, RAID 10, or whatever. Yeah, exactly, the idea is that it's scalable, and they automatically re-stripe when you add new hardware. So you're running out of space, you have a whole stack of these things with whatever terabytes, and you're running out of space, and you just add another one in, and then they automatically restripe across that new one. So they give you the redundancy, and they give you all the aggregate scalability you have across all your spindles in all your things.

Gabe: And I love how dynamic that is, too, where if you just plug it in and it re-stripes everything on the fly, that's amazing. That's a now down-time, you just decide to add more capacity, and boom, there you go.

Brian: Yeah, although I don't know. I ëm nervous about, I guess I understand why they have to do it, but I wonder how long it takes to re-stripe, you know what I mean? You got these things full of drives, and you plug in chassis number 6, go home for the weekend, and we'll have full speed, full capacity. Although maybe they do this in the background. So what if it take s a week to get all the data over there?

Gabe: Yeah, as long as the performance doesn't degrade.

Brian: But where I'm sort of going with this, is, in their environment, the hard drives, they're selling storage, they're a storage company, right? But when you buy servers from Dell, what these chassis are using, there's CPU and memory in there that they're not using. They can't buy a server small enough to actually use up all the CPU and memory in the thing. And, so, I don't know if it's from these guys, or a customer or whatever, they're like, ìHey, we got excess capacity in there, can't we just run some VMs in there, because it's there anyway? Like we already have some extra space.î And so they are going after the VDI market now, where you actually use their things as servers. So imagine VDI servers, with local storage, and you're buying these branded as Pivot3, although they're actually like I said Dell.

Gabe: I don't know why the hell you would do this, I don't know why you just wouldn't put your VDI in the cloud.

Brian: Well this, wait.

Gabe: Burn.

Brian: No, no, no, this is exactly what I said to them. Are you trying to be a dick to me or do you actually think that?

Gabe: Yeah, I am.

Brian: But I believe it, though. This is exactly what I said to them. I said two things. So their whole thing is so you can run, they've got a configurater, and a cost analysis, and don't get me started on that, but I like, they deserve an ìëataboyî. They're one of these companies that has kind of cool technology, and I want to give them a handshake, like a tap on the back, like, ìI will buy you a beer, because what you do is awesome. I'm not sure how you're going to make money on this, but I think it's awesome.î I think of this with RingCube, too, to be honest. So you buy this thing with like 50 users, and then you have all these VMs that are running, and that's fine, and then you need more VMs, and you just plug in another server, and it gives you that much more VM capability, but also storage just automatically scales, stripes, etcetera. And they can route, they have their own, they basically have their own service VM that handles all the IO. If you lose a node, you obviously lose all the VMs running on that node, you wouldn't lose the storage and that kind of stuff. So, to me, I feel like Pivot3, I feel two things. Number one, I like them with Kaviza, right? Because what's crazy about Kaviza

Gabe: Sure. But you don't like either of those things.

Brian: Okay, if anything with Pivot3 I like them with Kaviza. So I want, I don't know if Citrix wants to get in the server selling business, or maybe Pivot3 can get out of the server selling business, and they can become, they can just sell their software as a virtual appliance, and have it an HCL with pre-certified list. They said they main thing is the reason they sell appliances is because they have to make sure the drives are the same controller or architecture or something like that, so they need to control it more. But if they told people, as long as you bought these same drives or controllers, buy whatever hardware you wantÖ I don't know. So anyway, I like them as a concept, I think they're cool technology. If I had Kaviza on their hardware, that would rock. So I think if I had to build a VDI environment myself, yeah, maybe it's Pivot3 hardware, maybe it's Kaviza software, and that's cool. But, to your other point, though, this is what I told him. Because he's like ìWe're going after the SMB space, we're just launching right now.î They're going to launch in a few, I think they're launching at VMworld, I think nothing we talked about was off the record, so I don't think I'm screwing them there. But he says they want to go after SMBs, and that's why I'm like, manÖ

Gabe: See, I don't know. I don't think that the SMBs are as enlightened as you are in their thinking here.

Brian: Which is why there's no way they're running Kaviza, they're going to DeskTone or IBM or Dell.

Gabe: No, I don't think they are, I think they're thinking the traditional way. I think that they're out there, and they don't trust these things from the outside. When everything they rely on to run their business, if they don't have these things running, their small business is way more impacted than a large business.

Brian: But Google Docs, man, Google Docs is made for small businesses.

Gabe: Google Docs sucks.

Brian: Who can write..? Gmail, whatever. We can't run, man, freaking TechTarget's email was down again. VMware's email was down for a day last week, right?

Gabe: Well, same problem, but go ahead.

Brian: But look, I don't believe that a private company can run email as reliably as...

Gabe: I'm not saying email. Dude, we're not talking about email, we're talking about desktops. We're talking about the things the users use every single day. We're talking about the apps they use every day, the interface that they use for those apps every single day, we're talking about that, we're not talking about email. We're not talking about services, we're talking about the thing they access all of the stuff with.

Brian: But I guess it's a question.

Gabe: So they might be taking those apps and putting them in the cloud, but the actual desktop, I want to own that if I'm a small business right now. I realize that in the future it may change, and that these solutions are out there and growing, but right now if I'm a small business IT guy, I'm thinking, alright, I'm going to put what I can out in the cloud, a few apps here and there, email is a great idea, but these desktops, I think I still want to own these.

Brian: I want to know about people out there. Who's got small business customers? Well if you're out there and you have small business customers, I guess you're consulting for them, so you don't want to consult yourself out of a job, but I don't know, man. I guess I can't ask around here because it's San Francisco and it's more advanced. I just don't think that people want to deal with that crap like if they're running a small business. Who knows? Someone comes to them, and it's like a dollar a month, you go to a browser, you type it in, you got your desktop, it's still Windows, you can install whatever you want. Sorry, a dollar a day. A dollar a day per user, I don't know. My point is, if this small business is enlightened enough to go to Kaviza or Pivit3 or build their own VDI, I think they're also enlightened enough to go to one of these external hosters.

Gabe: But you're limiting, you're talking about S, about small businesses. Medium businesses still have big-ass packages that they have to run. They have line of business apps that are just critical to the entire place. Accounting, management stuff.

Brian: But even all that's going in the cloud now.

Gabe: Yeah, but they're not going to move it there when they've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to have what they have already, they're not just going to move that stuff to the cloud.

Brian: That's stupid.

Gabe: That's stupid? What, are you eight?

Brian: Hey, dude, come on, it's...

Gabe: But come on now, if two years ago your company invested three hundred thousand dollars in to an application that manages all of your inventory, shipping, receiving, accounting, all that stuff, are you just going to abandon that and drop it off in to the cloud? No, you're going to sit there and leverage it for the next 20 years if you can.

Brian: You're going to leverage yourself out of a business, then.

Gabe: I don't think you are. These guys are not as nimble and agile, and I don't think they want to be as the big companies. These guys are just happy to rest on their laurels, it's the benefit of being a small to medium business.

Brian: The benefit of being a small/medium business is that we can rest on our laurels.

Gabe: Your solution spends more money.

Brian: So let me ask you, I guess I can keep going back to us, because at TechTarget, we have 600 people, I think. I guess we run our own email servers and we run our own everything, it goes back down to a cost thing.

Gabe: What's TechTarget? Is TechTarget a medium business?

Brian: Yeah, I would say. Like most everyone's definition is changed. Like small is 50 to 100 people, I'd say up to 1000 is medium, and bigger gets to enterprise. Because when you're under 1000, you still have kind of the old way of thinking, everyone's doing everything a little bit, within the IT department. Like look at our IT department, we have people who have different jobs, but they all sit together in one room.

Gabe: And TechTarget is different from other companies, too. Every single company is different. And so the brand-new small to medium business that's starting up today, yeah, I'm with you, man, let's put it all up in the cloud. But the people that have been around for a while, doing business in a certain way, they're not going to do that. And TechTarget's the same way, there's just no reason they would drop everything and go out to the cloud. For anything.

0:56:30 Gartner Magic Quadrant

Brian: So let's change the subject here, we've got like four minutes left, and let me just look back on the chat, talking about cloud stuff.

Gabe: And feel free to let us know, people, if an hour is way too long, let us know, because right now it's just Brian and Gabe bitching at each other.

Brian: But the thing is, we've been doing that for 12 years.

Gabe: Now we're sharing it.

Brian: Alright, look. A couple of other things, did you see, so Gartner just released their latest Magic Quadrant on hypervisors, because Citrix has been advertizing this.

Gabe: Most obvious magic quadrant ever.

Brian: I know. So guess what, it's a magic quadrant, and it's on hypervisors, and VMware, Citrix, and Microsoft are all on the leader's quadrants. Like, ìYeah, no shit. How much did we pay Gartner?î And everyone else is in that lower left quadrant, so that's everyone, like Oracle, Parallels, and I don't know who else is there. And it's like really? Way to go. And Citrix is advertising like crazy, like, ìHey, we are now in the leader's quadrant.î Though I think they were in the leader's quadrant last year, although, I don't know how much of the actual position of the dot actually matters. If you actually look at the graphic, the leader's quadrant is one square inch. You can be, like VMware is the highest and the most to the right, so they have the highest in vision, and the highest in ability to execute. So even though all these companies are in the leader's quadrant, Citrix is, sorry, VMware is the highest, but Citrix is in the leader's quadrant, but I actually think theirs went down a little bit. I think that, I don't know how much this little dot actually matters, maybe we can ask somebody at Gartner, but I feel like Citrix's dot is the same where is was for vision, but they're a little lower with ability to execute. So maybe Cloud.com changes that, I'm not really sure. It was just funny to me when I saw that that they, all those were in the leaders.

Gabe: Apparently, Citrix is a little lower in their completeness of vision as well, because VMware's is not only up higher, it's also a little bit farther off to the right.

0:58:58 Simon Crosby goes to Bromium

Brian: Right, okay, so I guess they lose Simon Crosby, and the vision goes out the window. By the way, so Simon goes to Bromium, you wrote about this when I was gone.

Gabe: This has been the fastest four minutes ever.

Brian: So I'll say this, so Simon, I think Peter Levine is involved with this, is that the guys name?

Gabe: Ian Pratt, Peter was the CEO of XenSource, that's the relationship.

Brian: So they've got a new company, it's called Bromium, they won't explain what it does except it's about security of applications, it's somehow leveraging security hardware such as vPro and these sorts of things, it's not a client hypervisor, and, thought, day 1 they announce this company with 9 million dollars in funding. So, immediately, with those three on board, and 9 million bucks, we want to know what they do.

Gabe: Yeah, I wrote an article about it, but nobody really suggested anything other than what I suggested, which is I think it might have something to do with end-point security, or out of band management of VMs, that kind of thing, but nobody suggested otherwise, but I'm not sure if I'm right, just because we know Simon, we know that that dude thinks about a mile and a half ahead of everybody else.

Brian: Let's try to get him on the show. We tried to get him at BriForum, but he emailed us about BriForum, we said let's do a panel or something, but he said, ìOh, I can't make it,î or something. So I don't know if that was a polite, "Oh, I'm busy, I got the thing," but I'm hoping that we can maybe get him on the show next week.

Gabe: At BriForum, right?

Brian: Actually, it's 9 o'clock, man, so we are out of time, so we'll sort of do a post-analysis of this and see how this show went, we are going to try to do this thing live from BriForum next week, though. So we'll kind of see how that goes. We'll look in the future, we're going to try to get a new player built, but this was our first chance. So I guess I'll say to all of you who are listening, thank you for tuning in today. We're going to post this as a podcast immediately, as soon as we can to mp3, and you can listen to it later, and we'll come back next week doing something live from BriForum in Chicago.

Gabe: Thanks.

Brian: I guess that's it, thanks a lot.

Gabe: We have to work on signing off.

Brian: Cue music now.

Music plays

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