Attention Vendors: If your products only work with virtual desktops in 2012, man… good luck with that!

Great points, Brian.  And no matter how the desktop gets delivered, what users really want is responsive desktop support, snappy application and desktop peformance and no downtime.

User's don't typically care that much how the desktop is delivered, so long as they can access it where and when they need to, it works as expected and whenever they need something, they get it taken care of in a timely manner.

What's confusing many is that too many people are incorrectly pitching desktop transformation as a one way journey from physical to virtual desktops only.

How is the average desktop admin thinking about transformation? I bet they are just under paid, status quo rug sweeper types who really have no incentive to think differently.

It's about getting to a better managed (lower cost than unmanaged) state so you can effectively adopt various client architectures as things evolve for your business. I.E transforming to more of an IT as a service type organization. This is a mostly a dead end conversation with the average desktop admin because they just have no incentive, and will just focus on tools to do a traditional desktop task easier and that's a different route to market altogether. Case and point, most just give admin rights to their users and let users self manage..... Security etc is not their problem or they just have zero power to do anything about it and business leaders just don't care or don't get it. VDI/desktop virtualization would mean moving to a better managed state, and they just are not getting there anytime soon and therefore will stay as status quo and create the new Windows XP, Windows 7 badly managed....

The transformation conversation is a higher level dialogue with people who can create incentives and get the need to increase options for the organization across their entire client architecture estate.

It has nothing to do with product messaging, its boils down to #1 does it work for required needs #2 what’s the cost?  Products may use terms like “transformation” but that is pure and simple to describe the journey from Physical to Virtual. In reality check  the product to make sure it is completely agnostic and quite happily works in both parallels. Make sure there is not priority vendor lock-in. There are some products mentioned in this thread which completely lock you into that vendor with no way out.  So I think if we are talking about the flexibility to traverse from physical to virtual and back again then surely you need a solution that allows you the flexibility to step out of product use without having to redesign your whole strategy again. Food for thought!!!!

Good point Brian and something that becomes more and more apparent each 'VDI' project we do.

A desktop 'virtualisation' project is just about identifying use cases and choosing the best mechanism for them. (virtual or not). Physical desktops is always a use case in any of the VDI projects Ive done.

I used to call it VDI, now I'm more comfortable calling it desktop virtualisation but actually maybe we should simply call  it a desktop refresh. If we happen to have virtual, streamed, physical, shared (TS), or cloud desktops in the mix then so what. It's simply refreshing your customers desktop strategy using whatever methods are most suited....it's not really about virtual vs. physical

It is also about marketing and positioning - for those of us who sell virtualized desktops :)

Rickey el-qasem when you actually technically understand what you are talking about and have a response feel free to engage in intelligent debate beyond the shite that Liquid-Scare-Labs marketing spews out.

www.appsense.com/.../LWL-and-the-Truth-about-UV-Solutions.aspx

Response to Harry. Clearly you don't know me and I touched a nerve. "technically" I've been doing this for a long time and hey I even used to be an instructor in the Appsense product line and have some notable notches on my belt. It’s obvious from the response here and in your link that you are seriously worried about some healthy competition. I won’t stoop to your level and make this a personal attack at you Harry but what I will do is remind partners of your loyalty... I know you better than you think.

Couldn’t agree more with this post, Brian. Progress can only be made if we’re taking into account all forms of end-user devices. Vendors should provide management for physical, virtual and mobile if they are to bring any simplicity into a complex process. We do this at Matrix42. If you’re interested, I wrote a blog post not too long ago that addresses this topic: blog.matrix42.com/.../workplace-management-hat-trick-mobile-physical-virtual-desktop-management

Gil Cattelain

Matrix42

@Ricky Of course you'll avoid answering the technical questions or even the 101 marketing errors pointed out..... It's nothing to do with competition, that is welcomed.  It's about spreading out right lies that are designed for the purposes of FUD. If you want to have a technical debate answer the questions raised, if you want to continue to relish in BS then stop crying about being called out for it.

I am sure that you and I could debate our respective technologies all day Harry but I will let the market decide.  At the end of the day, we believe that we offer a great option for our customers and partners seeking a leading migration and user virtualization solution….and that belief is validated every day!. Seeing that it is nearly mid-night I'll take the high-road and say good-night.

Great points as always Brian, and it seems to me that the name for where we are on Gartner's hype curve is in between the Peak of Inflated Expectations and the Trough of Disillusionment (See en.wikipedia.org/.../Hype_cycle) which means whether you are talking about the entire picture or just filling a niche for now which might turn into a very big niche as we reach the enlightenment phase where market maturity presents itself, 2012 should be at least about managing expectations starting with what current desktop virtualization technologies do and what they do not which is replace physical desktops.

@Rickey, when you don't even have the backbone to own up or correct fundamental inaccuracies that have been pointed out. Yet, continue to misrepresent core facts, then it's a lot more than a debate on respective technologies that have you have little to compare with. Your customers, channel partners, SIs and the market are fundamentally being duped and I'm not sure that is the most sustainable way forward except for a few short term greedy execs who are looking to make a quick buck by fooling people who don't understand what's going on.

Others compete, they market, they even poke and rib. That's all fine. There is plenty of opportunity. However competition that is designed to grossly misrepresent does not help customers and hurts our industry.

Liquidware Labs continuing and willful neglect to fix misrepresentations is shameful.You can't claim taking any high road with something so fundamental by brushing it off with a canned marketing statement.

Hopefully the new year will bring some positive resolutions to Liquidware Labs, like basic truth.....

I meant to say all physical desktops as primary desktops... Yet. They do offer new types of SLAs over.the old physical model, but require more maturity of tools and it organizations as you seem to propose.

Couldn't agree more with title statement...

The problem is that many people confuse  

desktop virtualization with VDI.

VDI is about managing virtual desktops.

Desktop virtualization is about managing (virtual or physical) desktops through image virtualization.    

And just as app-virt applies for physical and virtual machines, desktop virtualization should apply to both virtual and physical machines, except the virtualized entity is not a single app but rather the full desktop images.  

Specifically, once virtualized, images can be centralized and bring many manageability benefits including single image management, DR  of the entire image, hardware migration & refresh, in-place OS migration, centralized repair and troubleshooting, and more.  

Combined with a proper delivery infrastructure,  desktop image virtualization is a powerful method for physical and virtual, central and distributed endpoints.

Desktop virtualization done right, for physical (and virtual)  desktops !

@Issy, building and trusting a entirely different storage architecture to solve part of the desktop problem with Wanavo is a big pill to swallow. I'd also suspect you go up against every established systems management vendor out there including MS. MS is simply not doing anything in the layers space to make the OS support it so apps can be supported and run this way. You have the same problem as Unidesk, but you do focus on Physical. However in the layers space, I doubt anybody is going to bother with a massive change on especially with the status quo out there. However, I hope to see you get more traction, you just need to get a CMO that isn't such a D... You also completely discount of hosted desktop in the data center, and hence pose risk to a customer because you're no better than the VDI vendors a one trick pony.

@Brian, the idea of consistent management makes a lot of sense. An area that hurts Citrix who are rip and replace only minded.

@Harry, I hate the word desktop transformation and the hype surrounding it. Mostly BS set of tools to do a migration. It's all about better mgmt, agree there.

@Rickey q-qasem I think you're being asked a fair set of technical questions after coming on this technical blog and making marketing statements. Really a Sysvol exe is what you do and that means messing with peoples AD infrastructure. You'll get push back on that right away at many places. Why not just answer the questions, unless you really are BS'ing the world which would not be first time a vendor has done that....

@Rick Braddy. Agree, are you the former Citrix CTO dude?

Hi @appdetective we don't mess with the AD infrastructure at all. Sysvol replicated file is a share that you could use or you could use any windows share if you like with Profile Unity. Using Sysvol as a replicated file share has its advantages but it’s up to you if you use it or not.  Jason Mattox, our CTO, would be happy to  talk about this over the phone or email and then once you’ve had a conversation, we can post our thoughts about using a replicated file share.  Jason can be reached directly at Jason.mattox@liquidwarelabs.com or call at 1-678-397-0450, ext 101.  He would be happy to answer any and  all questions you may have.

@ricky el-qasem I have no need to talk to your CTO, I've looked at your product in the past and it doesn't solve for my use enterprise use case. If your CTO has time to speak to me, then I think he's better off actually addressing the questions raised in the blog post. I'd certainly be interested to hear your response to being called out for essentially being called liars.... That's quite a charge so saying nothing just confirms it....

Saying nothing does not confirm Simon Townsend’s allegations against Liquidware Labs.  We chose to take the high road and let customer's decide. It would have been fruitless for us to refute his allegations on our competition’s own blog which has deleted comments for the subject and no longer allows for comment on the particular subject. Our competitive matrix is based on hard facts about product differences that matter to customers.  If you would like to see our response to Mr. Townsend’s allegations you can view them here:   www.vdi.com/.../64

Jason E. Smith

Liquidware Labs

Director, User Virtualization Solutions Worldwide

@LWL.. it's the Christmas Holidays guys? WTF! I am sick of the BS and frustrated that 2 days before Xmas I am having to reply to posts that try to name and shame me.....my blog post was in direct response to your marketing attack on AppSense technology (which was BS)  and highlights the TRUTH...we are missing the point of the post..."Focus on the desktop; regardless of how its delivered and make sure your solution delivers functionality regardless of how that desktop is delivered"....in the case of AppSense, we do that..Managing the user regardless of how the desktop is delivered (virtual, TS or VDI)....and allow the user to roam....PS "managing the user is not just about Personalising the environment - Apps, Rights, Permissions, Configuration and context are also important!

@Ricky and @Jason - your claims and your links are still in correct!!!!!!! if only you would download our software (www.appsense.com/evaluate) and read the documentation; or perhaps speak to my enterprise accounts (I would happily take you into); and realise that WE DO NOT NEED A IIS/SQL Infrastructure to provide our customers with a PROFILE MANAGEMENT solution that is equal (if not not more granular (process start based) to your Profile Unity solution...There is NO LOCK IN, no extra complexity - Flex, AppSense and RES have been doing this for years - and now LWL does - welcome to the party LWL? .@Ricky  - Disappointed dude - you were a good AppSense "techie" back in the day? We shared some OK times? Dont let a salary blind your technical judgement! YOU being an AppSense trainer at a Disti in the UK many years ago, you would know these statements about "lockin" are BS...you used to train people how to perform registry hiving using our EM Policy product - have you forgotten? Its still there for those that want to use it...however... On the note of our personalisation server solution, (which does use IIS and SQL), the reason why we ARE chosen, and why many (but NOT ALL) of our customers choose the IIS/SQL personalisation solution over the file based profile management solution - simplicity, cross platform, cross app delivery, profile analysis, rollback, OS migration, load balancing, replication, DR, and scalability....Happy Xmas to all....the new desktop  does need to take the USER more seriously, and managing the user regardless of how the desktop is delivered is important....I look forward to 2012 and the exciting opportunities Windows 7 and the managed USER experience brings us....Simon

Ok BS detector is been turned on. Time to raise a a few questions and make a few points of my own.

@Jason I went through your post on VDI.com. There is no place to comment there so I'll do it here instead. Looking at your comparison table, your statement "User Installed Applications-  Our forthcoming FlexApp technology will be part of ProfileUnity; AppSense has said their UIA is a separate product." you have to admit is a partial statement ignoring that UIA is free www.appsense.com/.../Free!-User-Installed-Application-Madness-With-AppSense-Strata.aspx. So your statement just mean nothing, if there is something I have missed please feel free to share.

"No vendor lock-in, keeps profile in native Microsoft format" @Simon, I think it would be helpful for AppSense to post a blog post or video showing how this can be done given your response. This would put the question to bed. @Jason a point I'd like to is that the native MS format is the cause of most problem in this area of user management. So while I agree having the ability to go back to native MS format is a good thing to have, I don't believe most people will ever bother, so mostly a marketing statement as opposed to reality. Besides it's amusing that LW claims to be friends here with MS when they go our of their way to be centered around the Vmware ecosystem :-)

"Automatically migrates then redirects user authored data (My Documents, Pictures, etc.) to network for best practices" @Simon would love to hear your response to this. However @Jason, I'd love to really understand the use case. Are you talking just about a simple migration tool for user settings. That's a Script I wrote during my NT to XP migration. Anyway may be a feature that matters, so I'd like to understand more.

"No SQL and/or IIS Servers required" @Simon, I think AppSense needs to do more to explain this. I understand this, however it the reason I'll bet many enterprises reject LWL. Scale baby, scale!

"VMware ThinApp™ Caching for offline use"@Jason, what position does this put you in with MS (personally I like it as it reduces need for $ MDOP) and I bet chief MS dog Citrix also is at odds with this every time they have to deal with big brother. @Simon I know AppSense does a bunch a stuff with ThinApp, so I think it's fair to give a deeper explanation of what you do. And hey if LWL does the offline and AppSense doesn't I'd rather you admit and not BS.

"Includes Software and Hardware Inventory capabilities" @Jason I think this is largely irrelevant unless you are completely unmanaged. Most use some inventory tool or can write a simple script and capture basic good enough information and save some money. I also think it's fair to say that most people who want to do software licensing stuff buy the entire AppSense suite which includes their other products that deal with this. In combination with the LWL assessment product I see more value here.

"Compatible with VMware and Citrix persona solutions" @Jason, I'd refer you back to my previous point. Largely irrelevant and also implies that you think user virtualization is just profiles and means you have capabilities missing and won't be addressed if you stick to your current architecture.

"Zero Install Agent" @Jason a true marketing statement. I'd not even going to address it as it's just a meaningless check box. I think @Simon addressed the issues well in this first blog post.

"Consumes zero RAM and CPU during user session" @Jason @Simon. Doing things at logon and logoff just limits. Not very practical for a VDI environment that is dynamic. Doing things in session is a trade off, however I agree there is performance price to may for more power, however I have no seen it to be a big deal. What matters more in reality is when the agent behavior is not as configured, usually a bug etc.

"Average enterprise implementation in less than a day" @Jason come on, another marketing statement. With or without a infrastructure setup for either product is not exactly rocket science. What takes time is designing your configurations right. That's where I have found on several projects I have been involved with the greatest lack of understanding. This is where RES is simpler to configure out of the box because they have more templates. However for all products when you really what to get your users under management you have to take the time to configure the think write. @Simon will argue this point for sure, however I will say that AppSense would benefit by making our of the box configuration, I.E get started quicker easier so people can then figure out the advanced stuff as they evolve. Right now AppSense is intimidating for the average idiot which there are plenty of, so my recommendation is appeal to more basic people out of the box with the power to do things dynamically. Logon/Logoff approached are the wrong approach for the desktop.

"Price" I'm all with @Jason here. AppSense is expensive although very powerful and that's what you pay for and you have to compare apples to apples. Too much power to start with for many and hence appeal is to large complex enterprise who need that amount of power. @harry @Simon why doesn't AppSense produce a version that is cheaper and lower capability, simpler to use that appeals to a broader audience. If you did that with more template etc as suggested above I think there would be benefit.

So @Jason and @Simon. Let's stick to what really matters and  drive things in reality. I challenge you both to further respond to the points I raised above. I'm all for both of your companies doing well as I believe user virtualization is all part of a better future that we have to strive towards.

@All, this just goes to show yet again how much vendor BS there is out there, and why I am glad for sites like Brianmadden.com. Ruben has done a better job in his most recent UEM smackdown www.brianmadden.com/.../user-environment-management-smackdown-head-to-head-analysis-of-appsense-citrix-immidio-liquidware-labs-microsoft-quest-res-scense-tricerat-unidesk-and-vuem.aspx and even Scott Davis CTO of EUC at VMware who knows nothing about the realities of desktop implementation understands that there are different types of solutions communities.vmware.com/.../the-many-flavors-of-persona-management. However understanding of what is needed in practice and what is possible in the user virtualization space is still nascent amongst many and BS does little to help. Hopefully in 2012 we will see less BS and more education with improving solutions that help us successfully implement.

>  And if you figure that there are something like 500-750 million corporate desktop users in the world, but I'm going to guess we're somewhere in the 2-3% range for use of full time desktop virtualization.

I'd like to know where that 2-3% figure comes from, because it looks like it is considering just a small part of the  broad spectrum of technologies that comprise desktop virtualization. Desktop virtualization is at its heart a management paradigm, Issy along with every other vendor I have talked to understands this.  The sales funnel they are looking at is the one with 500 million desktops not the 10 million desktops that you are looking at.

Simon

Simon, thanks for getting this thread back on topic.  In respect to this thread I have continued my off topic reply over on www.vdi.com/.../64 where anyone can also post.

Gosh, so much anger on the site.  I have to say, personally, that to be honest it starts with the business strategy as to what they want to offer in terms of application delivery, then decide the environments, security needs, requirement to be tethered etc and the finally the delivery mechanism. Nothing new here though.

One of the risks of VDI (and DV to an extent) vendors trying to move to all desktops is that Microsoft (who I work for) and other companies already have some excellent tools for managing the infrastructure and delivering the right application through the right environment.  

More than simply positioning marketing to address all desktops, work out where the products fits for all delivery types and aim for major impact there.  DV is not right for all users and scenarios and understanding where it would be a hit and clearly articulating this helps a lot. Nothing worse than watching a good product trying to be all things to all people when better products exist when taking into account all desktops rather than just virtual.

Then there are the tools and software, such as AppSense that can truly be applied to all environments, more than some other vendors can simply do.  If your product is a DV product, trying to sell it as something else will just cause you and the customer pain, where as understanding where it is the KO product means much greater success and happy customers.

Just my own very personal opinion, but I work in this space.

This thread does a great job of reminding me why the IT industry has way too many ego's!!!

Looking forward to Citrix Synergy / Briforum and create (+ moderate) a nice paneldiscussion... #UEM Smackdown