Citrix's ICA problem, while not as bad as VMware's RDP problem, is still a problem for widespread VDI adoption

If XenApp supports those features, why are they not in XenDesktop? Has anyone heard an official response about those missing features? Which will be added in the future and which never will?

Give me TWAIN, PDA, SpeedScreen for Multimedia and Flash, shadowing and smartauditor and I am happy.

From my perspective, after talking to hundreds of customers about Desktop Virtualization, they are okay with a solution that doesn't apply to every client.  Sure they would like a solution like that, but if they can reduce the desktop management costs for even 50-75% of users, that's better than what they're getting with no centralized application delivery mechanism, i.e. TS or Citrix.  Additionally, there is a common theme that TS & Citrix is just too complex, and not enough of the IT Staff can manage it.  Most enterprises have lots of IT people, and only a select few that can deal with TS & Citrix without breaking it. For companies that already have a virtualization infrastructure in place, virtualizing "some" of the desktops reduces their management costs, empowers their desktop support engineers and provides a consistent desktop regardless of location (assuming there is connectivity).

I agree that not being able to serve 100% of apps via remote display protocol is not panacea, but what most companies have now can be dramatically improved my desktop virtualization, even if it doesn't fit every use case.

As for the "slow moving Provision" comment, I'm not sure what that means, as we seem to be able to add features at a more rapid pace than the competition.  We typically have two releases every year (not service packs), and each packs more and more functionality on top of a management framework that has surpassed what Citrix has offered for the past 8 years.  What exactly do I mean by that?  Since 2000 we have been delivering tools that "enhance" Citrix and Terminal Services to provide features like:

End-to-end Universal Printing

Granular Hybrid User Profile Management

Complete Desktop Configuration & Lockdown

Application & Host Access Restriction

Network Drive & Universal Network Printer Mapping (w/o scripting)

File, Folder & Registry Redirection to make applications work that typically required administrative rights/permissions

Add/Delete registry keys or values at logon, without any scripting.

Assignment of apps/desktops to Users, Groups, OU, Client IP Address/range or Client name.

Full-featured CPU & Memory Management, without springing for XenApp Enterprise.

Integration with Softgrid, so softgrid apps can be published and accessed seamlessly or via published or virtualized desktop.

Fewer clicks to publish/unpublish multiple applications, i.e. unpublishing apps from a Terminal Server or Managed Desktop Group is two clicks.

One single integrated management console and configuration database that manages everything, i.e. Terminal Services, Virtual Desktops, Physical Desktops, Desktop configuration & lockdown, profile management, policies, printing, softgrid....

Oh, did I mention that one doesn't need XD Platinum edition to shadow Virtual Desktops.  I wrote the spec for this and it's being added to our product in June.

As for RDP, we already extend RDP to offer true Multi-monitor support, Windows Media Redirection, local text echo, bi-directional audio, usb handheld sync and have a prototype of speedscreen for RDP.

I'd say that we move with more agility than "you know who", and have fewer holes to fill.

The next few years are going to be exciting.  It'll be interesting to see what becomes of the Net2Display specification, or if one protocol becomes the industry standard.  It's cool that Citrix has ICA,  and that we're extending RDP, but it'd be nice to have a newly designed protocol that doesn't have any legacy baggage.

My 2 cents.

Additionally, I had someone tell me that XenDesktop is Hypervisor Agnostic, as I had been using that terminology for our Virtual Access Suite.  I have since stopped using that term, and instead say "tight integration and automation", since supporting a hypervisor is more than just power management.  I think at a bare minimum one should be able to power manage, clone and delete virtual machines on a given hypervisor to say that there is any real integration.  Pointing one console to another console and importing VMs isn't too integrated.

A 2x4 Core system with sufficient RAM (16-64GB, depending on how much one allocates to each VM) often can scale much higher than 20 users, i.e. 30-50.  Parallels Virtuozzo can scale to over 100 concurrent VDI users on a single server. It's not the same kind of desktop virtualization, but an option some of our customers are excercising.

Some customers already maintain client OS licensing, Terminal Server CALs and sometimes Citrix Licensing.  That Citrix License costs more than the OS license, so one can do VDI instead of Citrix w/o incurring more licensing costs, assuming the same number of users.  Customers w/o any Terminal Services or Citrix infrastructure have the biggest challenge.

SAN Storage is not inexpensive, but it also is not so expensive that it's prohibitive for even SMB customers.  For 100 user VDI Deployment w/ no fancy thin provisioning Snap or Flex Clones, about 400GB to 1TB of SAN Storage.  Using a product like Datacore SAN Melody, this is not expensive.  Enterprise deployments requires either more SAN Storage, Snap/Flex Clones, Ardence/Provisioning Server or emBoot's winBoot + sanFly.

There is no free lunch.

Patrick Rouse
Microsoft MVP - Terminal Server
Sr. Sales Engineer, Western USA & Canada
Quest Software, Provision Networks Division
Virtual Client Solutions
(619) 994-5507
http://www.provisionnetworks.com
http://blogs.inside.quest.com/provision

This should have read "Customers w/o any Terminal Services or Citrix infrastructure have the biggest licensing challenge."  I'll post the MSFT Licensing Requirements on our blog. 

http://blogs.inside.quest.com/provision

Patrick
Here is the Link for VECD License info from Microsoft doc. The bottom line is if you want to do VDI you need VECD whether you are running XP or Vista
Licensing Vista with VM

http://download.microsoft.com/download/3/d/4/3d42bdc2-6725-4b29-b75a-a5b04179958b/licensing_vista_with_VM_technologies.docx

Jim Kenzig

One more

http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/4/4/e4442c9f-30d9-41f3-9876-82bbfc5aa4e6/windows_vista_enterprise_centralized_desktop.pdf

Patrick,

I agree with you. We bought a 4TB SAN the other day for about $7K. It's an iSCSI SAN based on Microsoft Unified Data Storage Server.

-Eric

The list of unsupported feature is even longer when looking at the bullets on page 10 of the Desktop Delivery Controller Administrator's Guide (CTX116843).

Nevertheless, there is one big plus: Dynamic Client Drive Mapping. It is absolutely awsome to be able to map USB mass storage devices during a session! I am looking forward to see this on Presentation Server and XenApp.

Regards,
Nicholas (http://blogs.sepago.de/nicholas)

Well said brian... we need 100 percent to trully kill the traditional deskop. Otherwise im not overly excited on creating another infra to run and maintain for a limited stakeholder count. All i see is complexity, risk, capital build out and maintenance eating into the ROI. :-( 

Im still waiting on a HW vendor to supply hardcore performance data for Vista guests under moderate workloads. There is to much quoting against XP with 256meg of ram. Distributed VDI is looking better everyday.

Hey Brian,
How's the memory lane when it comes to the ICA/RDP "protocol"?
As you have stated in the past there is no real differance between the protocols technically speaking, rather it's about client side/server side features implemented. ICA however have only 32 virtual channels and RDP some 65k.
Is it just for conveniance that you state:

"Citrix's ICA protocol is light years ahead of Microsoft's RDP protocol"

ps. I'm a Citrix guy, so no hasty conclusions of my sayings coming from competing vendors please.

Nicholas -

Do a search for DynamicUSB utility on Citrix support site:

http://support.citrix.com/article/ctx112588

Allows you to insert USB drives in active Citrix PS sessions by creating a folder in the root of C:\ and populating it with the USB data......nice workaround, free and does the trick...

 Mike

Brian - I love reading your blogs - youdefinitely know how to create controversy! :) Since you have quoted me acouple of times, I had to post something, and something terse.

We can all debate about whether XenDesktopsupports 99% or 98% or 92% of apps; however, the best test is using ityourself, not worrying about what features are in XenDesktop vs. XenApp. 

I have my virtual desktop that I use, and I worklike a typical office worker. I use standard productivity apps most of the timein my personalized environment streamed into my virtual deskstop, I browse theweb using an installed browser to websites, including brianmadden or Youtube,for good content ;), and finally since I am a marketer I need access to all thecustomer data that I use my LOB apps for (SAP, Hyperion, home grown apps andSalesForce.com), which are all hosted on XenApp. All I can tell you is that Iam 110% happy with my virtual desktop - it gives me high performance andaccessibility anywhere I want.

So, the real question is not whether the apps are99% or 92% compatible - but how satisfied are the 'OFFICE WORKERS' going to bewhen they get their virtual desktop (in my case it is 110%). And, there is onlyone way to find out, not listening to me or Brian but testing it out yourselffor OFFICE WORKERS:

http://citrix.com/English/ps2/products/feature.asp?contentID=1318945

Btw - when it comes to power users and those who need high graphics performance, Citrix has some plans for those. Check out Project Apollo Tech Preview (that works with XenDesktop) - http://www.citrix.com/apollo

Patrick

When will Provision have x64 support?  How about Windows Server 2008?

Can you create a head-to-head video of Provision's enhanced RDP vs. regular RDP on a typical WAN connection, like Citrix has done for ICA and RDP?  It would be useful to see if there is improved responsiveness (which is what really matters to users, not things like local text echo) from Provision's enhanced RDP.

Hi Sumit,  for this type of workload is it still not more cost effective to deliver a published desktop via XenApp? Higher user density per server and still have silo's for specific apps.

And before you mention the 'pristine' state of your desktop at every boot, I can also do this by using PVS to deliver XenApp!!!!

Don't see the win here under the circumstances you specifically mention.

For a HEAVIER user type then I'd agree that delivering via a VDI solution could be a sensible option.

Citrix Provisioning Server for Desktops can be a good solution IF

1. You have relatively homogenous PCs hardware; you can have some heterogeneity, but too much means headaches uses the Common Image technology that allows you to support multiple driver sets in a single image.  With XenDesktop, ICA obviously allows you to support just about any end-user device you want.

2. You have good bandwidth (100 Mbps minimum) between the Provisioning Server and PC's  

Provisioning Server for Desktops works well if these conditions are met.  Wyse uses this technology in its Streaming Manager solution, and Dell uses it in their Flexible Computing offering.

A good solution is actually to combine both solutions...i.e. Provisioning Server for Desktops for LAN users and XenDesktop for WAN users (or those with unmanaged devices).  The same image can be maintained for both since XenDesktop uses Provisioning Server under the covers.   

Just a short comment: There are significant differences between RDP and ICA, such as how per-channel compression and encryption is handled. But there's no major difference between the number of virtual channels. According to the official RDP specification published by Microsoft "A maximum of 30 virtual channels can be created at connection time" (fo rmore details search for MS-RDPBCGR.pdf). ICA supports up to 32 virtual channels per connection.

There can be up to 64k connections between a TS and clients, which leaves enough headroom for real big TS server platforms. But this number has nothing to do with the number of virtual channels per connection.

Since Windows Vista/Windows Server 2008 RDP 6.x has one advantage when compared to ICA: it supports the concept of dynamic virtual channels. This allows the creation of new virtual channel connections during runtime without pre-creating them during the connection process.

Benny

Sumit - I am considering a move to XenDesktop, what do you use to access your hosted desktop? Don't need brand or anything, just want to understand the form factor - is it some sort of thin device/laptop/desktop system, etc.?

thanks!!

Well said, Claudio.  I've been saying the same thing for a long time.  The only way you ever see a sustained performance benefit is if you use your new hardware to run only your old apps, which of course no one does.  The latest and greatest hardware at any given time will perform well with the current software of that time--even stuff that's newly released.  It's what happens in a year from that point when the hardware isn't the latest and greatest but the software is even more resource-intensive and bloated.

I agree that flash drive technology will alleviate some of this problem, but I have a hard time believing that current hard drive technology is the only limitation.  And even if that were the only limitation, then some other limitation would take its place, such as cpu or bus speeds.

--BXP

Of course nothing is 100%.  Brian, I'm a little disappointed that you even suggest that a less-than-100% applicability rate is a shortcoming.  Since when has a new computing technology ever had to achieve 100% applicability to be viable?!?  Off the top of my head, the only thing that comes close is Windows, but even it tops out at about 90% of the client desktop market.

As Mark stressed during the Synergy keynotes and as Sumit evidences below, VDI (with XenDesktop at least) provides typical knowledge workers with solid-performing, customizable desktops that they can access from anywhere regardless of their client device.  Looking at it from a microcosmic view, even if VDI could run only 90% of the apps Sumit needs, that leaves only 10% that need another delivery solutions such as XenApp/TS.  With the rest of the 90%, you've now centralized management of both the app and the desktop, while providing the user with a customizable and device-independent solution that can be accessed at the office, at home or on the road.  You might ask, why not remote all the apps?  Well, now you've relinquished centralized management of the desktop.  To that you might reply, then why not a TS desktop?  Well, now you've taken away some customizability and impacted the user experience.

But of course no solution will work for 100% of apps or 100% of users--just ask any admin who has 3ds Max or Lightwave users if he or she expects VDI to impact those users (though Citrix definitely is making impressive strides with graphic-intensive apps!)

--BXP

Brian, I had the pleasure of seeing you sing and dance at the Pubforum in Amsterdam Brian, and what i took home with me there from your session was the thought of changing the way we work, not focusing on XenApp version X, Terminal Server version X or desktop deployment solution X. But the notion of having more and more ways to reach more users and more scenarios made me think of the whole delivery idea in new light.

To me this whole debate is kind of crazy, who cares really how many percent of the apps out there we can provide on a XenDesktop, or Provision Networks Desktop? or VDM? To me XenDesktop represents new possibilities for my customers to deliver more services to their users on a known platform that they trust. I think most of my customers would like to have their users running 100% TS/XA but that is not an option.

VDI however opens the door for them to bring more of the users not able to live on TS/XA into their datacenter and some of them onto their virtual infrastructure thereby supporting the initiatives they have done to save cost, manpower and rackspace.

And there is another trend i tend to see when talking to customers about VDI. They see a new chance of emptying their offices of desktops, thereby giving their employees a better work environment, less noise, less heat(cooling needed), and more Desk-space. These are simple joys but to the office worker who just wants to work in a simple way this matters. And when hiring new employees, these things matter.

I know you can use thin clients on traditional solutions but what i am talking about here is getting some of the workers that we did not get 100% on traditional platforms to now be able to join the new world and enjoy the benefits.

just my two cents.

 /LamerSmurf

not if you use distributed VDI :-)

Caludio, you did buy the LinRDP and dosRDP from some sobscure chinese firm that based their products on the GPL rdesktop without ever releasig the code yourself nor your chinese vendors. It's in the open. What was your thinking?

ps. Not from cendio nor any other from the rdesktop lists.

check these out

http://blogs.inside.quest.com/provision/2008/06/13/rdp-bitmap-and-flash-acceleration/

http://blogs.inside.quest.com/provision/2008/06/07/multimedia-redirection-for-vdi-and-terminal-services/

I heard an analyst the other day who said that with VMware's View and vClient announcements over

Another year has ended. We did a "year in review" article in 2005 and 2006 (not sure what happened

Citrix's ICA protocol (and related acceleration technologies, like SpeedScreen) have been around